Million Dollar Days

The Hard Truths of Construction

• Robby Choucair and George Passas • Season 1 • Episode 76

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What if your home could maintain a perfect temperature year-round with barely any energy use? Thomas Coy joins us to reveal the fascinating world of passive house construction – a building approach that's revolutionizing how we think about sustainable homes.

Tom's journey from mowing lawns in the snow during a London gap year to founding a specialized construction company offers a compelling narrative about finding your path in the building industry. He shares candidly about his transition from carpenter to builder, growing a team, and the business lessons he learned the hard way – lessons that technical training never covered.

The heart of our conversation explores passive house construction, where Tom breaks down the technical elements that make these buildings so remarkable. With features like thermal-bridge-free design, triple-glazed windows, and continuous filtered air systems, these homes maintain a consistent 20-22°C throughout the year with minimal energy input. While costing 15-30% more upfront, the comfort and efficiency benefits quickly offset the investment. Imagine a home where there's only a 2-degree temperature difference between your feet and ceiling (versus 10 degrees in standard homes), no drafts, and allergens are filtered out continuously.

Beyond technical expertise, Tom reveals his "big scary goal" of building his company to a size where he can take his entire team to Africa to build a village – demonstrating how business success can become a vehicle for meaningful impact. His perspective on handling setbacks, prioritizing family, and finding purpose offers valuable wisdom for anyone navigating the challenges of entrepreneurship.

Connect with Tom and explore the future of sustainable building at coysconstructions.com.au or follow @coys.constructions on Instagram and Facebook to see these remarkable homes in action.

George:

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. Another episode of Million Dollar Days. I hope you are having a million dollar day Today. We are joined by a special guest, Mr Thomas Coy. Is it Thomas Coy or Tom Coy? Surely your name is Thomas. Surely your parents said, nah, this looks like a Thomas.

Guest:

Yes, it's definitely not a Tom. My mum says Tom with an H in it as well.

George:

It upsets me, oh Jesus.

Guest:

I don't want that.

Robby:

Wait, what do you mean? She said Tom with an H.

Guest:

No T-H-O-M not T-O-M, but how did she say Tom?

Robby:

No, she says Tom, but that's. Oh so she should type it.

Guest:

No, she'll say it. She'll say it. No, it does type it sometimes. Anyway, it's a real, am I?

George:

Is that when you're is? Yeah, thanks for joining us, mates. Um, we've been connected for a few years now. It's amazing how quickly time goes by, doesn't it? A lot of shit's happened between now and then, and we wanted to get you on the podcast for a little while, have a chat and, yeah, just discuss your journey of business and and running a construction company and what it's meant for you. So, thanks for joining us, thanks for having me. So so what? Um? At what moment did you wake up in the morning and you were like I'm going to become a builder.

Guest:

Uh, it's a good question, I it, I. It just happened that way. I never actually woke up and said I want to be a builder, you just woke up and you were a builder. Yeah, You're like that's just cause I can't remember anything. No, I actually wanted to be a landscaper, yeah right. And then I had a gap year in London in 07, I think and I was, you know, doing landscaping, mowing lawns in the snow, and I said I hate this, this is not for me.

George:

Mowing lawns in the snow.

Guest:

Yeah, it was snowing, you were mowing snow and I and I was someone's lawn in chelsea somewhere and I was like this is not not for me. Um, however, obviously, being a landscaper in australia is very different to in the uk, but, um, I discovered that I like the hard aspects of the landscape in the decks, the pergolas and things like that. And then, um, also when I was living in a hostel there for a bit, I uh met some chippies there that that wereed up and I thought, oh, this is all right, I want to be a chippy. So I came back to Australia, started an apprenticeship and my plan was to get a house and go back over there Once I'd done my apprenticeship, rent the house out and have an asset and live in London. And then it didn't quite work out that way. So did you get your apprenticeship in the uk? No, no, no, I came back to australia. Okay, yeah, what were you doing in the uk? Just having a gap year, just traveling after? Oh, just okay yeah yeah, it's good.

Guest:

I actually lost my license driving for nine months, so I feel like I'll just go those.

Robby:

I says, yeah, that's it, they haven't banned me from driving there.

George:

That's right, that's excellent and then so how long did you work as a chibi once you got qualified? So were you working for someone or did you go out pretty much immediately and start your own business? Like what?

Guest:

was your process. I worked for someone, so I finished my apprenticeship, then worked for someone else not my employers at the time. I worked for someone else for about six months and then said ah, I might as well just start my own show and then started Cooi Constructions back then.

George:

Yeah, excellent. And you weren't a builder back then, you were doing just your carpentry Nah, just carpentry, but you're doing carpentry as work.

Guest:

Yeah, yeah Is that good.

George:

Yeah, I was a contractor, yeah, Nice. And then did you grow your team Like was it yourself.

Guest:

Did you sort of go from being that one man show to then having more people? Yeah, so just myself, um, gain more confidence on your skill and ability as you do, coming out of your time, and then started getting more demand for the, for the work that I had, and then started employing some uh, employed a apprentice, and then two, then three, then four, and then the company just grew and then realized that I had too much admin to do. And then the next move was the jobs were getting too big. I was turning jobs away due to the size of them, being eligible to do them as a carpenter.

George:

Yeah.

Guest:

So then I said I'll do my builder's licence.

George:

And yeah, I thought I'd made it when I'd signed a two hundred thousand dollar job yeah, how funny that's like the day you become registered, like how good is this, I'm unstoppable and I'm gonna make just where do I cash the check?

George:

like show me, show me the place that you go. Little did I know. Yes, yeah, look at. And that's unfortunately a lot about what. Now the industry is a little bit like that, you know it's it's almost a license to fail because they don't give you, although they check technically your sound which I'd say 95% of the builders are technically sound they don't give you some of the business fundamentals, that fundamentals that you need to have to run a successful business. You know, you kind of learn those the hard way most people do.

Robby:

Isn't that? Isn't that most industries?

George:

Oh look, perhaps, but there's a lot of risk.

Robby:

What industry do they teach you? The business? They don't. They teach you how to do the job. Accountant. What Accountant? Accountants are the worst? Dude accountants. Do not. Don't take business advice from accountants. Take accounting advice from accountants.

Guest:

Yes.

Robby:

They know how to Accountant Numbers from accountants. They know how to account for stuff. They don't know how to run a business and grow a business. Most of them, some do, I'm sure.

George:

I'm sure there's a lot of businesses like that, but I suppose in our industry it's often high ticket prices, so when you fuck up it costs you big time.

Guest:

I guess you're so focused on getting the knowledge, the acts, the regs. I heard this saying that the knowledge you have to know as being a licensed builder is a six by four trailer load full of books. You're never going to retain that amount of information. You just have to know where the answers are. Yeah, that's right and that's intimidating because your head's on the chopping block if you get something wrong.

George:

Yeah, you study this much, but you're only tested on that much, and that's what it's about. And the system is flawed for sure as far as how you go about getting your registration, and there should be more to it, not just here. You're a builder, go ahead and go. It's too easy. No, it's actually. Look, I think it's a difficult process these days.

George:

I don't think it's necessarily easy and it needs to be difficult because there's too many cowboys out there Like this has to be a protected profession, because what happens is you get the guys that think they're builders and they're not, a builder's asshole Do you know, what I mean. They go out there and that's who gives a bad name to good builders like ourselves. Goes out there and does a shit job, doesn't deliver, can't manage the business can't manage their finances, goes broke, reopens to something else and then it's just a vicious cycle.

Guest:

Well, you know, if you can think back to when you first started. I know now, when I'm going and competing on price with people A, it's a red flag and it's disqualified. But if you do find yourself into that and the client hasn't disclosed that there's other builders competing for the same project, you go well. No, I'm holding my numbers because I know I've quoted that job correctly. I'm not the last. I either cut the size of the building down or you cut the scope down. That's the only way you're going to save money.

George:

Absolutely so. I'm not here to build your home. It's not to pay to build your home. This is the price. But there's a whole qualifying process that you should go through as a builder and you do learn that the hard way as well. It's like the ideal client in the beginning is anyone with a pulse. And then it's like after that, once you get the runs on the board, you get burnt a few times. You learn the game. You're like okay, cool, I need that.

George:

I'm not doing that again, yeah exactly you don't do that again, but unfortunately it's like you have to learn that lesson the hard way, and you know a lot of. What we do, particularly at Builder Elite, is to make sure we're teaching these lessons early on as a part of the process, not after you've had 10 years of experience, haven't made much money and lost most of your hair and gone gray and all that sort of stuff. So it's definitely a difficult industry. But we actually met at a business conference many years ago and what was your motivating factor to go and seek more knowledge and training, just to be better.

Guest:

Actually, it's funny you say that I actually listened to an audio book on the drive in here today and everyone has this instinct to want to be better or want to live a legacy behind you know, to have that driving force, to have something that lives on after you've gone, you've passed death. So everyone knows what, I guess, turns a blind eye to death, I guess, but they want something to last on after they're gone. So that I guess, subconsciously is a driver, was a driver for me to build something for my kids, for my family and ultimately just to be better. If there's something you don't know, knowledge is power and I guess all that combined into one to learn from someone to be better.

George:

Yeah, and do you feel that that did make you better?

Guest:

It definitely opened my eyes to the aspects of it.

George:

It put a hell of a lot of stress on me at the time, yeah well, I mean, that's how you can grow, though, like the stress aspect is part of the game.

Robby:

Yeah.

George:

You know you've got to learn to handle it. In any business there's levels of stress and you know we've said it on previous episodes as well like, stress can be a killer and kill you if you think it's going to kill you, but it if you think it's going to kill you, but it can also be a motivating factor that pushes you to achieve great things and get shit done. It's just completely how you, how you've perceived that implied stress that's put on you.

Robby:

And you've also asked for it.

George:

You're a business owner.

Guest:

Yeah, that's true and you can't always. But you have two choices you can sit there and go poor me, poor me or you just go. And yeah, I think, personally I think it was too much, too quick, Put a hell of a lot of stress on me, but yeah, I did learn a lot and open my eyes to the aspects of not just being a builder forever, because I won't be.

George:

Yeah, and that's great that you can have that foresight as well. Yeah, yeah, really cool.

Robby:

So you went chippy, turned builder, which is what most people more than half builders.

George:

I think it's the most common route I'd say it would be. Most of them are going to be carpentry based, because with carpentry it's almost like an all-round skill. You need to know, you learn the structure, but you'll learn the foundations of the design and you're sort of involved from that process.

Guest:

Well, I guess the chippies are on this job most of the time.

George:

Yeah, they're there from almost start to finish. They'll see the services trades go through. They see a whole range of things happen throughout their process of being on site, so you tend to pick up a fair bit of it along the way, what do you wish you knew?

Robby:

or what would you tell someone who's a chippy now who wants to turn into a builder, like someone who's a chippy now and they want to become a builder and they want to become licensed what do you wish you knew when you were in that position? Now that you've gone through the whole experience you've gone through yeah, good question.

Guest:

So to clarify an apprentice or a no? No, like so, chippy.

Robby:

Verify an apprentice or a…. No, no, like so. Two people who've been doing it for you know five years so qualified, say they're applying for their building license. They're looking at becoming a builder, or they are working with a team. They've got their own team and they want to take that next step.

Guest:

Find just to be honest about their weak spots would be if you know, I know my strengths and I also know my weaknesses, and it took me a while to identify the weaknesses which you could fast track that if you could find someone like a mentor, so someone who wants to be a carpenter to answer your question, find someone who has gone through that process and go exactly, ask that question, what would you do better? I would identify what you know, like I. I did a business course because I knew nothing about it, in conjunction with certificate four, because I I wanted to learn everything, because it annoyed me when I didn't know the answers to things and therefore, if you don't know, you don't know what questions to ask, rather than hitting roadblocks all the time. So if they're a carpenter wanting to be a builder, wanting to fast track it, find a mentor or do as many programs as you can on the side Associations like Master Builders and things. They have courses but they don't tick every box.

Robby:

I don't think there's any one place that ticks every box.

Guest:

There's a lot of companies that will sell it to them. Yeah, builders courses guaranteed 95% success rate or whatever, but they still don't have every answer. The best person you can find is someone who has gone through that.

George:

Yeah, I completely agree. I would probably give myself the same advice, and I didn't go through the carpentry route as well, but I would still. When I started my business, it would have been definitely to seek out that professional business advice from the beginning, because I knew how to build. It wasn't a matter of putting something up. It's easy. It is the easiest fucking part, isn't it? It's not the hard part. The hard part is well, how do you manage your client, like if your client just gave you the plans, gave you the money to do it, like you'd be done in no time. And it's all the emotion that comes in with it. It's all the other things you've got to handle. It's contracts, it's subcontracts, it's marketing branding, it's the estimate.

Guest:

How to hold the people accountable? Yeah, the liability. Who does that? Fall on the timeline? You know you could make money but you could lose to make money. But the the hard part is, yeah, managing the books who do you get when? What right time? Yeah, so all that is um plays a factor.

Robby:

Yes, are you referring to, like allocation of tradies booked in times? And now are you, yeah, lead times.

Guest:

You can blow the job out, even if prior to that estimating the job correctly, if, if that's not a screw that up, yeah, yeah, haven't allowed enough time. The if you lose, say, five grand on a contractor, uh, it hurts far more if you lose five weeks on the job Because as a builder you have a certain eligibility of insurance and if you I think at the start I'm not sure if you're the same George, but I was so focused on the dollars, making sure that I was hitting the numbers, making sure that the plumber said he was going to do it for 12 grand. His invoice is 12 grand or under, but the time hurts you far more because you cannot sign another job until that job's complete. So yeah, there is that element.

Robby:

So you're getting blown out time-wise. You're saying you can't sign another job? Yeah, if you don't have enough assurance to cover that.

George:

The other thing is it's like it's a very real cost to the project and to your business when a project is delayed because you still have to pay your supervisor his 10,000 bucks a month yeah, that's right. You still have to pay for the site shed, you still have to pay for electricity, like, and you've only budgeted for 12, but it goes for 15, that's right, all right, so you might have an extra 35,000 or 30,000, 50,000 worth of delay costs when you don't finish a job on time. And that's what people don't often understand. They're like oh, you're making heaps of money. I said, hang on, you've delayed me by three months and this costing me a significant amount of money to get this job finished, correct, they don't see it. No, they don't. They don't see that.

Guest:

So you know, these are the sorts of things again, the processes that you don't control, but they always come up, that's for sure and that's what for sure, that's 100% agree, and the hard part is we touched on it before managing stress is that you can get hyper fixated on those things Jesus job's killing me and and turn a blind eye to things that actually matter. Yeah, and that's what the stress consumes you, and it's very easily done because there's a lot of moving parts in every, every job. Often you'll run multiple jobs at once multiple clients, multiple trades, weather, all these things come into it and it can hurt you more if you get hyper fixated and you've got to really pull yourself back, sending yourself to what actually matters in life.

George:

So we've spoken a bit about problems. What are some of the wins you've had along the way?

Guest:

Wins in building. Yeah, just in building and building.

George:

What are some things that you're, you know, a bit of a fist pump moment for yourself.

Guest:

Oh, I've got a great family. You know, great young family and that's as I look at now. Some people struggle to have families and I really count myself lucky to have. I've got three beautiful kids and, yeah, brother, sister, my parents. You know, I've got three beautiful kids. Yeah, yeah, brother, sister, my parents. I've really got a great family that's around me Awesome, yeah.

George:

I'm grateful for that every day, love it and then okay. So what about in your business? Have you had some fist pump moments there too?

Guest:

Yeah, for sure. There's always times like I said. You know, when I started winning a $200,000 job, I thought I'd made it. That's it. I'm rich, this is awesome. Not getting any better than this. Yeah, that's it, that's it, you've won, whereas years down the track you'd think twice about that.

George:

Yeah, now you don't get out of bed for $200,000.

Guest:

Not like that. It's just, yeah, the business grows and then it becomes too expensive to do a small job like that, as you know. But no, the business. I'm really proud of the business. It's come a long way. It's evolved. Every day we're trying to adapt systems and processes and things are still never running smoothly. We're like, right, we need a system for that, and just feel like we're getting better and better all the time. Um, I've had some big changes recently, um big hurdles that we've accomplished. So together, as a company, it's um, I'm proud of where we're at and where we're heading excellent, that's great do you want to talk a little bit about what you guys uh specialize in?

Robby:

because, uh, we work for full disclosure and prior to us working together, I didn't know what. Well, actually, prior to meeting you once I met you I kind of got my head around it, but prior to meeting you, I'd never heard of Passive Homes. Do you want to tell everyone listening a little bit about what Passive Home is, for those who haven't heard of it before?

Guest:

Yeah, so we specialize in high-performance passive house construction. Marketing, as you know, is tricky because, yeah, many people haven't heard of a passive house. So what do you put on your banner? Is it high-performance custom homes? Because people resonate with that. So a passive home is basically a high-performing home which accounts for all the. There's five elements to it. There's thermal insulation You've got to make sure your building envelope is tight. Your high-performance windows. You can't just use any style of window. That has to be a certified window from certain manufacturers. It has to have air tightness layer.

Robby:

When you say certain window manufacturers, are they like? Do they become credited?

Guest:

No, they just have to perform, so they have to be airtight.

Robby:

It depends Economically like they have to be weatherproof.

Guest:

No, they have to be like thermal bridge free. Thermal bridge free, okay, so you can't put an aluminium window in because it's going to heat up through the frame and it's going to transfer the heat from the outside of the frame, when the sun heats it, into the building.

Robby:

So thermal bridge free means no transfer of any temperature, correct, okay.

Guest:

There you go. That's one of the elements. So same thing as if you have a fancy high architectural house that's got structural steel spanning from the inside of the home outside. That's a thermal bridge. So you can't have that because obviously the sun would heat that and cool it and it transfers through and it will create a dew point, or so correct me if I'm wrong it's more expensive to build a passive home than it would be a standard home. Yes, it is About between 15 and 30% more expensive up front.

George:

Here I am. I'm interested in a passive home. What, 20%, 30%? What's wrong with you? Why would you tell someone?

Guest:

to build a passive home. The comfort is the first point. You'll have a 2 degree temperature difference from your toes to your ceiling, so most homes may have a 10 degree difference there. You have no draft from toe to ceiling, 10 degrees, two degrees, and most times would be, it would be could be 10.

Robby:

Yeah, that's, that's a lot imagine that down here it's 30, but up there 20 yeah, that's huge.

Guest:

Or other way around, be hotter up on the ceiling, but yes, oh yeah, sorry, heat rises, I'm picking up marketing yeah, but yeah.

Guest:

So the, the comfort, the noise. You get no noise, no dust. You got clean, filtered, fresh air. So if someone, it becomes attractive. If someone in your family is suffering from, say, hay fever or anything like that, it filters the air. So I've heard I don't suffer from hay fever, but some people would have it that I don't suffer from hay fever but some people would have it that extremely bad day on hay fever, whatever grass is blowing around and then within 10 minutes of them being home in their passive house, it's gone. So there's that, and also the pollutants, the smoke. All that stuff gets filtered through.

George:

Yeah, so is there a balance at some stage? So say, if you're building a passive home, they're generally energy efficient. Is that effectively what you're going for? Yes, so is there elements that you get to five years down the track and the extra 30% that you've invested in the house has paid itself back yet? Yes, definitely, or like, is there a time?

Guest:

How do you because people look at that this is a great question and I've been trying to get a metric for this. Yeah, so you've got to have a before and after, ideally. So an ideal, I guess analysis would be on an existing leaky home which would have average Australian home would have 30 air changes per hour and a passive house you'd want it at one air change per hour, okay. Or if a passive a new build will be 0.6 air changes per hour.

Robby:

Air change is a change in temperature.

Guest:

No, the air changing in the room per hour.

Robby:

Oh, like in and out.

Guest:

Yes, oh, okay, yeah, yeah yeah, so basically to give you an example on the average size passive home would have, the amount of gaps combined throughout the whole house would be basically a credit card size combined amount of combined gaps throughout the home.

George:

So there's quite a fair bit of work that needs to go into it. Yeah, in order to make it almost airtight.

Guest:

Yeah, All your services that penetrate the building, all the wires, all the plumbing, everything the floor.

George:

Even like when you're wrapping the building, say in insulation and putting your windows in, I imagine any gaps between your frames and all that sort of stuff. They've got to be sealed.

Guest:

Yeah, we pressure test it with a blower door test on a positive and negative pressure at 50 pascals of pressure.

George:

So that's a fan that we replace, and what point do you do the test before plaster?

Guest:

Yeah, multiple tests. So we'll do it Once we do the external wraps. We wrap the roof and the walls and the floor if needed, Depends what floor system, if it's a slab or on a subfloor and then we will put a blower door in there to test the external wraps. And it'll leak at this stage, but we can identify it. If there's any gaps at that stage, Then we put the windows in, we test it again and then we will do the rough it all in, put the insulation, do the air tightness test, test it again after the air tightness layer is on, and then that's when it should perform really well. And then, once it's all plastered and finished, at handover we'll test it again.

George:

Yeah, there you go. So it's not just a matter of putting in better insulation or putting solar or putting a rainwater tank and then you go oh, I've got an energy efficient home.

Guest:

Yeah, there's a saying here. The energy standard we have is a Nathas rating. We have a seven star is the minimum pushing to 10 star. A passive house, a basic passive house, will blow a 10, 12 star Nathas rating house out of the water. Yeah, there you go, no problem. Yeah, so the you know a water tank to flush your toilets contributes to the energy rating here. It's got nothing to do with the energy rating. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, they perform really well. Every house we've built. The clients just love it.

Robby:

All right. So if you use a rainwater tank to flush your toilets, that contributes to the energy rating, correct, but it doesn't change how much energy you use at all.

Guest:

No what.

Robby:

So why does it contribute to the?

George:

It's on the metric, I don't know, it's from a level of resourcefulness for the dwelling. Back in the day, this is going back many years. If you put a rainwater tank in your property, the council would fine you. I do remember this. They would fine you. It's like what are you doing? Putting still water, capping our water? Yeah, exactly, still water. It's like it's pollute, it's still water, it's just sitting there, it's stagnant, it breeds disease, all this sort of stuff. You can't have that, whereas now it's like you build a new house. You can't build a new house without a rainwater tank. And the reason they do like on-site water detention and rainwater tanks is so they don't have to upgrade their service coming into the house. Upgrade their service coming into the house so they don't have to put new pipes in the streets. No, no, you keep the water on your site, so we don't have to upgrade our shit. Yeah, and make the client pay for it? Yeah, exactly right. If they do have to, they make sure someone pays for it, but if you crack the footpath.

Guest:

You're going to pay for it.

George:

The bill, absolutely so, yeah, it would contribute the using less water and you're retaining the water on site. If you're using it to flush toilets, it will contribute to energy overall, but as a metric it probably doesn't.

Guest:

No, so yeah, so you can't have certain things in passive homes. Lighting is important, but on average, home lighting contributes to your energy bill maybe 20%, so it's not a huge area. It's what appliances you're running, how many kilowatts per hour per room.

Robby:

Light makes 20% of your bill.

Guest:

Not even be less than.

George:

What, if you like, turn the neon sign off? No only leave the neon sign on 17 beer fridges you got running here. Robbie, I wish what were you saying. Oh, so let's just say I want a passive home, but I also want to watch my 90-inch plasma TV that sucks the life out of the electricity grid. Do you know what I mean? Yes, can you have that?

Guest:

too, Of course. Well, you have offset. There's passive house plus. There's passive house plus plus, which basically means it doesn't use any energy and it makes more energy than it's using.

Robby:

Yeah, wow, that's interesting. So it feeds back to the grid, Feeds back yeah. So it actually makes you money? Yeah, because you get paid for when you feed the grid.

George:

Yeah, so much, they don't they give you nothing, it sends them the dollar, Fuck all.

Guest:

Yeah. Two parts of nothing now. Oh, now has it dropped down more, has it.

George:

It's ridiculous. It's not even worth it.

Guest:

When I built my first house in Healesville many years ago, I got it locked in at 66 cents. 66 cents, wow. They would buy it off me for 66 cents and then I would buy it back off them at nighttime for 24 cents. So I was making money just off a simple solar system.

Robby:

Now I think they will yeah, like six cents.

Guest:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they probably buy it off them for 50 cents. I don't know what it is now. They like robbery.

Robby:

Yeah, yeah, hillsville, they probably didn't have electricity back then.

Guest:

Yeah, that's why I had a horse and a car. They're like a horse and cart. Yeah, like a horse and cart.

Robby:

Yeah, what is this man this is amazing On a wheel, yeah.

George:

Very good. So do you need to be accredited to build a passive house, can I?

Guest:

go build one tomorrow. You can, yes, you can. It's got to pass a certain standard. So you've got another layer. When do you do it? If they go for certification, yes, okay, then there is a certifier. There's certain people that do it in melbourne and then your building. The building has to perform. It can't just be like this is a passive house. It has to meet certain standards and has to perform and it has to pass.

George:

I think if you're going to do that. As a consumer, I would want to get it certified. I'm going to go to the expense of spending an extra 30 on the build which is quite a bit of money.

George:

It's a million dollar home. That's $300,000. Yeah, all right. So if you're going to go to that extent, I'd be like, no, like, certify this. I want to make sure that my builder has complied with what needs to be required to build a passive home. So, yeah, I would be inclined to do that. Can you be certified yourself to?

Guest:

test it. Yeah, certified yourself to test it. Yeah, I'm certified.

George:

So can you certify your?

Guest:

own. No, oh, so you can't certify. So who does that? It's an external company. So, you can't say I go and become that, I guess. So you have to go to Germany and study it a bit. Been to Germany before.

Robby:

There you go Easy.

Guest:

We'll just stop that on the way to Vegas. So it's a German product.

Robby:

It comes from germany, from europe, yeah, yeah, okay, so they've been doing it for 100 years.

Guest:

This is is that because of? Extreme temperatures and changes and shit like that over there yeah, so we cannot build this australian standard of home over there. You'd freeze to death. Yeah, so where they get um temperature fluctuations of 50 degrees, you know might be minus 30 and then they got positive 20. So this is their standard of building. Yeah, where this is passive house in Australia exceeds the standard that makes sense.

Guest:

I think we have a pretty good standard here, like that would be the general consumers, yeah but we've got a pretty average climate when you talk about temperature, other than what's happening in Queensland at the moment, and the high temperatures we get in Melbourne are obviously 40 plus, but they are far in between, whereas in Europe I guess they get those minus days where you would literally freeze to death.

Robby:

Yeah literally.

Guest:

But the temperature in a passive home will stay between 20, 22 degrees all year round, yeah, so we don't need big thumping air conditioners to cool the thing, so it will stay at that ambient temperature just because of the building envelope, the windows being used, the thermal bridge free design yeah, hrv runs 24-7, which runs a heat recovery ventilation system which gives the fresh filtered air 24-7, which runs a heat recovery ventilation system which gives the fresh filtered air 24-7.

George:

Yeah, so you never need to open up a window. No, you never let people go.

Guest:

You make it airtight. I can't breathe in here. It's not like that. You can obviously open up the windows and get some polluted air from outside and bring it in and ruin your rating.

Robby:

How much does it cost to get certified?

Guest:

I've never had one certified. Oh, so you've never done it externally? No, never. No, because the clients don't want to pay for it.

George:

It's a cost. So how much is it? I mean, how long is a piece of string, but what's it going to cost to get it?

Guest:

You just built my home.

George:

I want it certified.

Guest:

Yeah, it's not you, not. You have to get it done and tested throughout the process, so it'll have to be decided prior, whereas so you have to work off a different set of drawings. Obviously we work of architectures, uh, engineering, and we refer to the soil report and the energy report. Yeah, passive house will have a another layer of drawings which is calculated through a software called phpp, which is passive house planning package, which that spits out how you're going to do it, the wall constructs everything, and then the certifier will inspect the project at these various stages of the job and then, obviously, at the final result. Yeah, give you a little plaque on the house, but in theory, once Passive House becomes more popular, these homes will become more valuable. Yeah, so, to answer your question, I'd say it costs an additional $10,000 to $12,000, maybe more. Don't quote me on that.

Robby:

Okay, that's not too bad, because, yeah, the overall thing, I would do it.

George:

Again, if I'm spending 10%, to spend $10,000, $12,000 on getting this certified.

Robby:

Yeah, even if it's $20,000.

George:

Because even from a perspective value say I keep the home for five years that 30% pays for itself for 10 years. Imagine when you go to sell it. Yeah, you can sell it and say this is a certified passive home. It's not a passive home because I said it was or because I spent a bit of extra money. You've actually got an independent person saying that this has been this part. This ticks all the boxes.

Guest:

Yeah, I think. I think just being devil's advocate here is that the clients know that you're going to do a good job, it's going to pass the test, it's going to exceed the standard already, so they may not go. They go. What am I paying that additional thousands of dollars for? I'm going to live in the same result. They don't care about the fancy plaque or the accreditation.

George:

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, I guess as well. Yeah, do, yeah, yeah, that makes sense, I guess as well. If you were building your own home today, would it be a passive home?

Guest:

Yes, Definitely, definitely, as the more and more I learn.

George:

I've just finished a large renovation of my house, and then I started building passive homes and I was like, oh, now I want to put my house down. If I knew, yeah, if only I knew yes, yeah, it makes Sorry you, yes, yeah, it makes you just have to do another one.

Guest:

Yeah, just, it just makes sense.

George:

You know, I was sick of doing shitty leaky extensions, that that you just do it just enough but can you make it passive from an extension, like if you only do the extended part is passive, because then the other rest of the house wouldn't perform?

Robby:

correct, we can have passive elements. Yeah, yes, that's right, if you want to make the extension.

Guest:

uh, you want to make the extension just passive house? Then you can create an airlock or whatever. Okay, obviously, the existing home is going to let the new part down. We've done a few of them. We've finished, one in Blackburn and one in Hawthorne. Yes, interesting.

George:

Is there any constraints with it? So could you like, from an architectural point of view, could you design something that looks amazing externally? But then you're like, fuck, I can't make this a passive home anymore. Is there constraints to it? Yes, there is. With types of external cladding that you might use, does it come down to that extent? Yes, how are you going to get that watertight?

Guest:

or airtight yeah.

George:

I mean, let's just say, metal to a timber, like if you're using a metal facade on something. It generate a lot more heat and transfers.

Guest:

There's always ways that you can go about it, and that just creates that constant involvement. We have a pre-construction process that we call our PAC process. The clients will pay us as a consultant to read over and look over all the details of the plans prior to construction and we'll put it into software which will help us. Now, you won't identify everything. There's some things you do discover during construction. Elements such as yeah, if we've got steel columns, that we don't have enough insulation to stop that thermal bridging, or we can't fix the window to that section, or location of the window is important in a passive home.

George:

Yeah, like the orientation of it.

Guest:

No, where it sits in the wall makeup okay yeah, so that that your most of the time they're triple glazed. It can be double, but where the the your insulation sits inside your wall cavity. On a standard home it's similar to a passive house and you can have external insulation, but that insulation needs to be continuous through in line with the window. If the window sits out too far, there's a bridge between where the glass sits and the insulation sits, and that will create a thermal bridge. So there's all these finer details that need to be thought about prior and during construction.

George:

What about? Is there certain things that you would recommend, like, do you look at substituting materials? Yep, so say, you'd use a timber frame instead of a, or a like-age steel frame. Do you ever look at stuff like that too?

Guest:

Yeah, definitely Does that contribute to having a passive home. Steel's bad because it's a conductor. It's heat transfers through steel a lot quicker than timber.

Robby:

Is that because you're a chibi?

Guest:

Yeah, I'm a bit biased. I like my wood, robbie, it's timber, not wood. Yes, that's right. Where's wood go?

Robby:

Where.

Guest:

In the fire.

Robby:

In the fire. Okay, is that?

Guest:

a chibi joke. My kids know it backwards.

George:

Oh, do they Shut up?

Guest:

Dave, very good, yeah, there is. So I recently had an example where we're building a house at the moment, we've got sips panels. It's a structural insulated panel. It's a pre-made panel which is a high density core of xps foam with osb board on the outside and the inside, and that itself is airtight, so you don't need to do the inside air air tightness layer, and then the floor below is a is yellow tongue, which which forms air tightness layer as well yeah right.

Guest:

Um, now that's a very expensive product, um, for shipping costs and everything. There's a manufacturer here as well, but it just it's very expensive to build and install. So a constitution of that is to create the same performance of that panel in a conventional stud frame, so a 90 mil. You'll never get it. So you upsize those studs to a 140 or even a 190, some cases 240, and you put a high density insulation in that and that wall makeup will perform the same and cost offset is yeah yeah, interesting so you kind of hack the system in a way of like you're getting the same result in a different way yeah, yeah, it's.

Guest:

It's all what they, what the client's budget is like any build budget is important and what they're wanting to achieve.

Robby:

So yeah, so the thing you just explained half of it sounded like a different language to me. But the thing you just explained, half of it sounded like a different language to me. But the thing you just explained. Do you get the same result? Yes, for less cost. Yes, so why would you do it the other?

Guest:

way Would offset. Why would you? Because the Sips is a premium product. It is a better is a better product.

Robby:

But what's the so? Like? Is there a you long run? It won't last, or you know what I mean. Like what's the downside? Like, okay, we can go this cheaper way and we're going to get the same result but Well, you could get a high-performing wall with less room.

Guest:

So if you've got a tight site, say you've got a property in Hawthorne and you're six meters from boundary to boundary a SIPs build would be better. You're going to get a high performing wall with a smaller space and I guess on a site like that, 100mm is a big difference, right? So, whereas to get that same performance out of a conventional frame, you might lose that distance. That could be an option. Also, access time of build, time a year, all those sort of things, all those factors.

Robby:

So there's things to factor in.

Guest:

Yeah, for sure.

Robby:

Yeah.

George:

How many people in your team now?

Guest:

Hmm, this is a five on site. Yeah, and then there is five in the office. Nice, are you still on the tools? I'm like a Mr Fix it, fix everything. I like to be on this. I like going to site, I like being on the tools, but it's not my, I need to be elsewhere. If I spend too much on site, the stuff in the office backs up.

George:

Yeah, absolutely.

Guest:

Yeah, so I do a bit of everything. I do the sales, which I kind of enjoy. I like the chase of the sales. I'm actually doing a pitch in a job. It's a high value job at the moment and he, the client, does procurement. That's what he does, so he teaches people how to buy, so he's a challenge yeah, right, yeah, he's like I know I see what you did there, tom.

Guest:

Yeah yeah, yeah. So he's fun in the in the, when I'm pitching the quote to him and he's trying to obviously cut me down on price. It's a good laugh.

George:

Yeah.

Robby:

Yeah, I got a question If you couldn't work in the construction industry. So they said Tom, that's it, we're banning you from construction. You can't go on site, you can't go to commercials, you can't do anything, you're not allowed to be a chippy, nothing. What would you go and do tomorrow? That's a good question For a living, not for fun. What would you go and do for a living?

Guest:

I would want to be a game ranger in Africa. What's that? Just go like shooting stuff. No, that's the opposite of that. Teaching people to track the animals, shooting hunters yeah, yes, yeah, shooting that is the opposite.

Robby:

Shooting hunters yeah, yes, yeah, that is the opposite, complete opposite Shooting animals shooting the hunters?

Guest:

That's right. Shooting the hunters? Yes, no, I'd love to. I've always liked the idea of living on a game reserve in Africa and getting to know the animals and learning how to track them and things like that you could probably do that at Werribee Zoo though, mate.

George:

Yeah, it's not the same, not the same, I feel at home.

Guest:

I was obviously born in South Africa, as you know, and I I I feel at home. Yeah, nice, maybe it's because I'm so far away from the problems in the job. So yeah, get some peace. Can't come back and fix anything, so, rather than a holiday, have a beer.

George:

Excellent.

Robby:

That answers that.

Guest:

Yeah.

Robby:

If anyone wants to connect with you or find you or learn more about Passive Houses, where should they go?

Guest:

Yeah.

Robby:

This is your job, Robbie. I'm setting it up. I just lobbed it up for you to knock it out of the park. Yeah.

Guest:

We've got a park. Yeah, we've got a website. We've got a website.

Robby:

It's great yeah hopefully you can work out what it is figure it out and work it out what's the website.

Guest:

you can follow me on coysconstructionscomau. And yeah, my name's Tom and call me.

Robby:

Can I follow you on Instagram or anything?

Guest:

Yes, Instagram Facebook. I don't know. Is that what?

Robby:

people say, follow your journey. Yeah, I'm asking whether, if I want to follow the Tom Coy journey, I'm like passing.

Guest:

Where do I do it? Do people say like, what do you do? They don't say their Instagram thing.

Robby:

You say like, what's your Instagram handle at Kois Constructions? There you go, we'll give you the plug here Koisconstructionscomau. They're on Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn. See, that sounds much better. Yes, I do. I do this a lot, just a couple of times.

George:

See, that sounds better than not. I don't even get numbers from people anymore, Just say hey, what's your Instagram handle?

Robby:

Do you really?

Guest:

Is that a thing I'm?

George:

too old school for that. I hear the young folks they ask the girls what's your Instagram? How do you even remember that? Yeah, just ask for their number. Yeah, might be easier. I don't get it. Playing a different game Times have changed. Playing a different game what's next? Where do you see Koi's construction in the next five years?

Guest:

Where do you see Koi's construction in the next five years? Yeah, look, I love. My big scary goal was to build the company up to be big enough that I could take the whole team over and build a village in Africa. That was my big scary dream. The, how, the what, the when was not decided, uh, but the, the, the dream was there and that was our focus. So you know and the drive behind that was similar what I touched on before when, when you're on your deathbed, you got nothing more to give. You're not going to say I, I was a builder for x amount of years and I built 300 homes. Who cares? You know, it's not the, it's not my driver. It's to say, hey, I was a builder, but we did this. This is pretty cool.

Robby:

Well, you've done that a few times. You did a project in South Africa. Yes, yeah. And you did a project in Tassie.

George:

Yes, yeah, it's a little bit different. Was the T job?

Robby:

No, I built one when my parents oh sorry, I missed the charity part I just heard going overseas and doing stuff and I was like you've done that, yeah.

George:

Tassie job is a hard one. I do remember when you were flying down there, you were flying the team down there as well, the team, the truck.

Robby:

He took the timber like that.

Guest:

What they don't have steel in Tassie. They barely got electricity. Are you serious? Yeah, they must have. Tom must have borrowed your horse and cart, the windows, the posies, the trusses, the LVR, all that freighted over there from Melbourne. You're kidding, they don't do any of that. No, fuck there's no, there was such a backlog. They had two years delay, you're kidding me.

George:

How could you possibly function as a state? And if we've?

Robby:

learned anything, it's that time delays cost more than that's right.

Guest:

There you go, not waiting two years for posies. So yeah, it was a killer. But there's only a couple of trust plans, so that, yeah, it was just all backlogged, but anyway, yeah, that's the dream.

George:

So to do that still, but some personal circumstances, you know that's um halted, that we'll put a delay on that currently, but um, we'll get there. That's it, mate. As long as the eyes on the eyes on the prize, that's right that's right.

George:

You gotta work towards something rather than yeah, and like, at the end of the day, you just use your setbacks as an opportunity to grow and become better person and version of yourself. Like everyone's gonna have them. Yeah, you're always gonna get it. Like there's to be a time in your life and everyone's life where it's going to be fucking hard and you're going to probably hit rock bottom. Yeah, you know at some stage. Yeah, and you know from what I've seen over the years with everyone that's ever gone through a difficult time, the ones that have used it as a lesson and really grown from it come back 10 times better. They come back 10 times a better human being than what the initial adversity of the situation was. Yeah, and I think that's really important. I reckon it's man, it's almost a prerequisite.

Guest:

What do you?

Robby:

think about that.

George:

Do you think it's almost a prerequisite to go through some really difficult shit in order for you to have a good level of?

Guest:

success. I think so because it gives you perspective and it touches on what's important, what's not as bad as, or it's not as good as, this. That's right. You think that's bad Should have said this? Yeah, that's nothing.

George:

Yeah Well, we've said this at events and stuff like Gary Vaynerchuk is massive on that. It's like you know how do you deal with all the stresses of employing 1300 people, of doing this, of you know, when you lose money, when you lose a deal, when you break your leg, he goes. I compare it and I go. Well, these are the top 10 closest people to me on the planet. Are any of them dying right now? Or do I have news that they're dead? No, then that's not a fucking issue and that's how he looks at it. Now, that's quite extreme example. I get that, but he still has that mindset and I think it's a really good way to at least ground yourself and say cool, this is my problem, but that's a real problem, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. That's not that bad. You can manage this it's annoying, absolutely.

George:

It's not to say it's not difficult. It's not to say that it's not upsetting, but it's still a way and a tool that you could look back and go all right. Not this, this isn't going to stop me, it's just going to put me back a bit that's right and it's.

Guest:

It's important to reframe things as well, as there's reframing it to make it sound like it's better, and there's also is reframing it to make it sound like it's better, and there's also actually dealing with the problem, and there's so many moving parts as, I guess, anyone's business that it can shift your focus and it's impossible to not think about it. But you've got to try and compartmentalize it, push it to the side a bit so you can focus and keep carrying on with your day, where some people throw the toys out the cot, kick their legs up and go poor me, poor me, poor me You're not going to get anywhere. You can be that person for a long time and you'll be put in that box, but if you just go, that sucks. Get on with it. Yeah, move on. And yeah, like you said, what can you learn from it? If it doesn't break you, it makes you stronger.

George:

Yeah, and then there's an opportunity there for you as well to pass that knowledge on. Then, effectively, you become that mentor through your experience. That's what a mentor is. It's just someone that's gone and done the things that you haven't experienced yet. Most of the time they're hardships. Hey, don't do this, I've done it, it's fucked. Then you're like oh wow, thanks for letting me know, because I didn't know that You've just saved me a year's worth of heartache, or you've saved me $300,000, or you've saved me from committing to this relationship with this person, with that consultant, with that subbie, with that whatever.

Guest:

Well, it's funny. You say that it's like that's what everyone's after. That's why people pay mentors and business coaches, and that because they're looking for a silver bullet 're looking for a quick win. How can they fast track it to get to the next stage quicker, because they know everyone's time is running out yeah as eventually you're, you're gonna reach the time where you go. Well, that's it can't work anymore, some people will.

George:

Some people also get in their own way. They're like what pay 50 grand for that, fuck off yeah it's. Is that all? Is that all? I have to pay? Yeah, Do you know? What I mean yeah yeah, it's how you're fast-tracking your position from A to B at the end of the day, and that's where I've always looked at it, with mentorship and advisors and anyone that's in my life Like how are you going to help me get from A to B?

Guest:

What need to invest, like where, where's that point? Yeah, of intersection, yeah, I, yeah, couldn't agree more. What I've been struggling with lately is that especially what's been happening in my personal life is that you get compared to all the time, and then I guess the same thing could be spoken about in in any industry you can compared to this you're meant to be like. This Says who compared to what?

George:

Well, comparison is one of the quickest way to sap the energy and happiness out of your life, do you?

Robby:

know what I mean. Comparison is the thief of joy.

George:

Oh, there you go. That's the saying I was looking for. He had it there, but he's just leaving me fucking hanging and making shit up.

Robby:

I was like this is going to be sick. There's got, this is going to be sick. I can't wait. This is my opportunity, my time to show. I'm going to eat. This is ready, I'll fucking show him, yeah, but yeah, what was it again? Say it again no, I can't, you can't, it's the ants. Only Comparison is the thief of all joy, joy, joy, not all joy.

George:

Not all, just some but it's so true.

Guest:

You know, I think people's personalities make a big difference, and no one ever talks about that. Everyone compares to you, know your style, the way you communicate, or or your love language, or put you in a box.

George:

Yeah, that's what you are, that's how you should be.

Guest:

Personality is the driver of how they communicate what matters to them, morals, all that sort of stuff Values, um, what matters to them, morals, all that sort of stuff Values, yeah, values is very important, yeah. And um, yeah, how they were brought up and how they see things is is very important on the outcomes and the way they see it compared to other people. So it's just hard.

George:

Yeah, so you have a crew of 10 people. Now Do you find it difficult to be connected with everyone's values and communicate the way that they like to be communicated to? How do you manage that process in your business?

Guest:

Yeah, look, I don't find it difficult to answer the question. I'm an open book. I say it how it is. I call a spade a spade, so they can read me like an open book. Yeah, so they know-.

George:

They know what to expect from you.

Guest:

That's right. So they know that I'm open and honest. I always say to them families first. So if they have any problem with their kids at home or personal things going on, I say, don't worry, sort that out first, because I know from my own experience that stuff will consume you. So if you're not going to force them to come into work while they know they've got their problem, they're not going to concentrate, they're going to do their work. Take a day off, yeah, then come back. That's it. Bigger problems, right? Yeah absolutely Absolutely.

Robby:

So, yeah, I think yeah, love it Very good. Well, Tom, thanks for taking time out of your day to come over and chat with us. You're welcome, mate.

George:

Yeah, appreciate it. Appreciate it, mate, then look forward to maybe we should do this again. You know it's been a while since we've caught up, but it'll be great to catch up even in the next 12 months' time and you actually come up in here and say, hey guys, the trip to South Africa has been booked, taking the crew up and away we go. I love it. This is the spot, that's it. That's where the seed was planted and where it's grown in that amount of time. So, yeah, thanks, mate, appreciate you coming down, as always. We love bringing guests on, like yourself, to share your journey. So people see the insights, people see that you know there's a very human element to running a business as well. It's not just all the glam of driving cars, going on holidays, buying boats and skis, didn't you know?

Robby:

No, that's all I've been doing. Is it this whole time? Fuck, that's what everyone thinks, yeah exactly.

Guest:

Everyone thinks builders are loaded. You will last to get paid. Yeah.

Robby:

You get to keep all the money at the bottom.

George:

Let's hope so. Let's hope so.

Robby:

If you're good, yeah, yeah. If you're good at your job, good if you get any job get there it is a good job, feast or famine that's it.

George:

One or the other excellent, all right guys. Well, you know where to find tom and, as always, you know where to find us here. Every single monday, we'll be dropping new episodes, so you can always tune in and tell your friends to subscribe, as well as, especially, especially, your mother especially subscribe and um, a little in in-house joke yes, that's um no. Thanks for tuning in. Guys cannot wait to have a chat to you next week, take care.

Robby:

Thanks Robbie, thanks everybody.

Guest:

Cheers, bye.

Robby:

He doesn't know how to do it, he just does it. It's just too fast. See easy work.

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George Passas

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Robby Choucair

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