Should Australia Put a Stop to Owner Builders?

A howling wind shreds a campsite, a lonely mate nearly gets blown away, and a highway stop turns into a $1,018 gut punch over an unregistered company car. That flash of blue lights opens the door to a bigger question we’ve all felt: why do the systems that happily take your money fail at the moments that matter? We pull apart VicRoads bureaucracy, the dead weight of outdated taxes, and the slow grind of council delays that can sink a project long before a slab is poured.

Then we go straight at the sacred cow: owner builders. George takes the gloves off—most people don’t have the time, the trade leverage, or the coordination to deliver a safe, durable home without paying for it twice in delays and defects. We break down how trades price owner builders, why vague drawings explode into variations, and where hidden risks live behind paint and plaster. Robbie presses on freedom, AI as a coach, and whether a smarter framework could unlock a better path for those who can’t or won’t hire a builder.

We search for a middle ground that respects ambition and protects outcomes: short, targeted education on sequencing, codes, contracts, and estimating; mandatory stage inspections beyond slab and frame; and independent oversight from registered builders or project managers who can approve each gate before you move forward. Along the way we share practical buying signals—documentation quality, real branding, transparent communication, and how a well-run process beats a too-cheap quote every time.

If you care about building—your home, your business, or the industry—this conversation gives you usable filters and a clear sense of where things break and how to fix them. Join us, then tell us where you stand: should anyone be allowed to build a house, or is it time to reform the rules? Subscribe, share this with a mate who’s planning a build, and leave a review to help more people find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Camping Chaos And The Windstorm
• 2:10 Highway Stop: Speeding And Unregistered Shock
• 6:45 On-The-Spot Permit And Fines Fallout
• 12:00 VicRoads Bureaucracy And Monopolies
• 20:30 Taxes, Councils, And Broken Incentives
• 28:40 Robbie Rants Ends, New Mission Begins
• 29:10 Owner Builder Debate: Ban Or Reform
• 39:30 Costs, Delays, And Trade Dynamics
• 48:00 Regulation Gaps And Inspection Reality
• 57:30 Variations, Risk, And Choosing Builders
• 1:07:30 Can Education Or AI Save Owner Builders?
• 1:17:20 Mandatory Checks And Project Managers
• 1:25:30 Would You Buy An Owner Builder Home?

Transcript

Robby: 0:00

I've got a story. I've got some ears. And I I've I've mentioned it to you briefly, but we actually haven't spoken about it in person. Okay? So the other day I went camping and we got caught off guard. People didn't check the weather. Hundred kilometer winds, tents got busted. Is that why you came back early? I was wondering why you came back early. Yeah. So it's like horrible. Like, dude. Like full on. Tents broke. Uh my cousin had his awning open. The awnings metal. Snapped. Yeah, yeah. Like full on. Uh anyway. So we came, but like we disappeared to go get firewood, came back, and everything. There was one person left on site. He almost died. And everything was everything was just where were you guys? Yeah, he dude, he was flipping. No signal. And then we just hear on the radio. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:56

Did it just come out of nowhere?

Robby: 0:58

Yeah, it wasn't like that when we left. Anyway. That's so good. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02

It's almost funny just to know that he was there on his own. Yeah, he was there on his own.

Robby: 1:06

Him and his two dogs. Yeah. And um shout out to Ben. Um so we left, and uh we're driving home. Okay. And we're driving home, there's four of us, and everyone's in their own car. Because we went for all driving there and stuff. I took the ranger for all driving for the first time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25

How was it?

Robby: 1:26

It's good. It's got some cool functions that I wasn't. It is quite a capable vehicle. And so we went and we're on the way back, and I'm like, I when I do highways, I generally sit just above the speed limit. Just like if I can chew 20 minutes off this trip, we're four hours away. And we're about two hours in, and I come up over this hill, and I'm doing about a hundred and fifteen in a hundred zone, and there's a cop there, and I get pulled over. So as soon as they saw me, lights went on. They were driving, by the way. Alright. Lights went on, and I thought, ooh, have they caught me here? Like, surely not. Like, how can they can they scan you with the gun while they're driving? I don't know what's going on. I think so. Anyway, so I come up over the hill speeding and they pull me over. They come around like they do, Yui, catch up, pull me over. So I pull over. And then she's like, Do you know why I pulled you over? I had two women cops. She was I can't, I can't.

SPEAKER_01: 2:36

Oh sorry, you keep going.

Robby: 2:38

Hey?

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

I was gonna be sexist, but I shouldn't have.

Robby: 2:42

No, you should. Listen, I I Were they real cops? Were they pretending? I don't know. But so I get pulled over. She's like, Do you know why I pulled you over? And I said, nah. I knew why. Yes. But I said, nah. And then she said, you're speeding. I said, okay. She's like, yeah. She's like, did you also know your vehicle's unregistered? And I said, what? And she's like, your vehicle's been unregistered for five months. And I said, this car? And she's like, yeah, your vehicle's unregistered. And I thought, Are you sure like are you sure? Like that that makes no sense. Why would I you know what I mean? Anyway. And then she says, Do you have any outstanding fines? And I stopped. And I thought there's parking fines in there.

SPEAKER_01: 3:27

Parking fines are gonna be a good thing.

Robby: 3:28

And I said, it doesn't matter because this is not under my name. This is a company car. Oh, yeah. It's a company car. Yeah. It's not under my name. It has nothing to do with me directly. Right? It's a separate entity. I don't own the car. Yeah. And I said that, and then she's like, oh, it's been cancelled. It means you didn't pay it. And I was like, oh, I haven't received anything. And she's like, well, they would have given you something, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I haven't received anything. Yeah. And anyway, she's like, so we're gonna have to. Do you have someone that can pick you up? I'm two hours out of Melbourne.

SPEAKER_01: 4:02

Yeah.

Robby: 4:02

All my mates are with me. They didn't know that. They kept going.

SPEAKER_01: 4:05

Yeah, yeah.

Robby: 4:06

And all my mates are with me. And she's like, Do you have someone that can pick you up? And I'm like, no, I'm two hours out of Melbourne. I'm not leaving the car here. Like we're in the middle of nowhere on the heart. I'm not leaving the car here. Yeah.

George: 4:14

Like that's on bricks when you get there.

Robby: 4:16

Yeah, that's not an option.

George: 4:17

Yeah. And Uber would be very expensive.

Robby: 4:19

Yeah, like I'm not, I'm not doing that. That's why because you, your stupid government company didn't send my fucking Reg Joe papers. No, fuck you. Yeah. I was upset, let me tell you. Were you giving her attitude? Nah, I was like, she's like, so you can receive the the fine via SMS or email or post. Which one do you prefer? And I said, I'd I'd prefer not to receive the fine. See, I told her it was funny. She didn't laugh at all. Not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. Come on, that's comical. She was a I will I will plug her name. I'll I will name and shame her. I don't give a shit. She was a horrible human.

George: 4:58

Yeah.

Robby: 4:58

She was like, could tell she had zero interest in they were gonna take my plates.

George: 5:03

Yeah, right.

Robby: 5:04

They were gonna take my plates. And I'm like, take them. Like, I don't give a fuck. I'm driving out of here. Yeah, I will buy a permit right now. They made me buy a permit on the spot. A permit. Yeah. Oh yeah. As in the temporary one. Yeah, to drive an unregistered vehicle.

George: 5:16

Yeah.

Robby: 5:17

And then they're like, oh, just letting you know that you shouldn't be driving on the weekends with the permit. And I'm like, I have to get the car. I don't get like there's nothing you're gonna say, lady. And then they're like, Oh, this is my opinion. You would have seen I was I was genuinely shocked when she told me. Yeah. Like genuinely shocked. I was like, what? Like, no way. You know what I mean? Now, if you wanted to be a good person, a good Samaritan.

George: 5:41

Samaritan's a civilian, I think. Is that right? Does that include Lord and I don't know, let me let me let me word that differently.

Robby: 5:48

If you didn't want to be a fuckwit, alright, you would have said, hey, look, I'm gonna do you for the speeding because you were speeding. Yep. I can see that you probably didn't know about this. Buy the permit, get it resolved, and we'll hook you up. Yeah. Instead, they fucking stung me for both. You know how much a fine is for driving an unregistered car? A thousand and eighteen dollars. That makes me throw up. I I just anyway, I left there, I was pissed off. Yeah, yeah. Uh and then they're like, oh, we're gonna take your plates. And I was like, take them. Like, I don't give a f- And they're like, alright, fine, we'll leave you with your plates so you don't get hassled. I'm like, you're fucking hassling me, you anyway. So I buy the permit.

George: 6:33

How much was the permit?

Robby: 6:36

Sixty bucks. Oh, okay. I was expecting it to be a lot more. No, sixty bucks. And then I leave and I'm upset. Like I I kind of messaged me. Yeah, I was I was because I f well the reason I messaged you was because you had the same thing happen to you. Yes. Right? And one of you guys was driving, he got pulled over. Yeah, and then you were like, I didn't get the anyway. He got pulled over within a three-month time frame, so he didn't have to get the car re-registered.

George: 7:00

He could just pay the well, he didn't cop any fine. Well, the company didn't cop any fines. I hope not. Anyway, I haven't received anything. Yeah, but didn't cop a fine. I think it was less than three months, it was like a month out. Yeah, but so still I wouldn't have known gone five months in the future. I wouldn't have known.

Robby: 7:14

Yeah. What uh what do you think? I'm sitting there saying, I wonder where my rent when my rent is due. So when it goes over three months, the reto gets cancelled and you have to re-register the vehicle.

George: 7:26

You have to get it.

Robby: 7:26

Did you have to go get a road worthy? Yeah, I had to go get a roadworthy, got a book in with Vic Rhodes. They're like, We're gonna change your plates. So it's like, I've paid for these plates. Yeah, like are you gonna take them off me? Why? Pay me back for them, like buy them back off me or leave them on the car. You're gonna now charge me for new plates.

George: 7:42

Yeah, why are you complicating the process?

Robby: 7:44

You want to talk about complicating the pro I'll go off now.

George: 7:47

No, you need to. You need to. People need to.

Robby: 7:48

We want to talk about complicating the process. So this whole thing happens, and I'm sitting there thinking, how's this happened? How has this happened? How's this happened? I definitely haven't received anything. Check all my emails thinking, did this slip past me? And didn't, I didn't get anything. And then I think, oh, when I bought the car, the business had a different address. Have they sent a letter to the different address? So I call Vic Rhodes because I want to work out like what I don't want this to happen again. No. Anyway, I so I don't want this happening again. So I call Vic Rhodes.

George: 8:16

And on the phone four.

Robby: 8:18

I called them at 801. Like I was Monday morning 8.01. I need to get this resolved, ASAP. So it's my only car. It's parked here, by the way. I've been driving it. But um I call them and I'm like, hey, uh, this is the situation. I'd like to know how this happened. Like what happened, what communication have you guys tried to, you know what I mean? Because I'm sure if you sent a letter, it probably got returned to sender and you guys haven't done anything. You know how people put artists and stuff. Yeah. And it's like, if if you've sent a letter and the address is no longer valid, like there has to be some there has to be some uh responsibility on your end. Do you know what I mean? Uh and then the guy says, Oh, okay, you know, uh, he was he was nice and he was calm, but he's like, So what's the registration of the vehicle? He's like, and it's registered on their company. He's like, and who are you to the company? Like, I'm the director. And he goes, Okay, cool. He's like, Well, uh you need to get a letter of authority from the company and then take it into themselves to speak. I said, So you need me to print a letter saying that I'm allowed to talk and I have to sign the letter? And he's like, Yeah. And I said, Do you understand? I could like there's the whole purpose of having that is so no one acts on behalf of the company.

SPEAKER_04: 9:37

Yeah.

Robby: 9:37

If I am the person signing the letter, how is that? He's like, You have to do it. And I was like, Can I do it online? Like, can we? He's like, No, no, you have to do it, and you have to go into a Vic Rhodes to show them for them to tell you, talk to you about the car, otherwise they won't talk to you about it. And I was like, And then he's like, Because you haven't applied for an online account. And then I said, Hey, I did apply for an online account and you guys rejected me. And he's like, they wouldn't have rejected you, we don't reject anyone. I said, So why the fuck do you make people apply? If it's not a rejection thing. Why do you make people like and he couldn't answer me? And then um, yeah, that's my story. And now I'm here with a thousand and eighteen, thousand and five hundred and something dollar fine, three demand points, pissed off. What's your name?

George: 10:20

Oh yes, you need a name and shame.

Robby: 10:22

Name and shame. When did it happen? On the weekend. Name and shame. Message from I don't have it because they reset my phone. Anyway, I won't go there. Fine's gone. It's fine. I won. Five months red room I'm not gonna pay the fine. Five months red row for free? Who won? Who won really? Do you have any outstanding fines? Me, I don't I'd rather not talk about it on the record. Uh, but my point being is two things. One, I think cops don't do the right thing by people. Two, I think this is a Ford problem. I think they're not passing the information on to Vic Roads because it happened to both of us. And I think you should make sure it doesn't happen to you again. You didn't get the notice.

George: 11:06

No, I'm just gonna sell my cars. So did you sound like you get the notice?

Robby: 11:10

Are you able to find it? I don't know. I haven't looked, I didn't even check. You just moved on. I just moved on. Yeah, I'd move on if I didn't get a fine too. I'll probably move on after the car's re-registered. Uh and then three, I've now got a um you know in America they have a privately owned version of whatever they uh the DMV or whatever they call it. I I it's either that's the private one or there is a government one and a private one. In Australia, we don't have that. They've got a monopoly.

George: 11:43

Yeah, yeah. Look, I I 100%. And I feel yeah, but that's what this this is okay. This we're gonna go sideways and no, no, but that's not fair. I get it.

Robby: 11:53

They don't want to have y'all can be pricks, yeah, and I can't do anything about it because I have to come here. Why can't we why can they do it with doctors? Why can doctors have Medicare in private? Yeah, why can't there be a private version of Vic Rhodes where we are licensed and regulated and we can do the same thing as you? It just costs you a little bit more to come to us. Because I guarantee you most people will go to the one and pay. Yep. Because they'll be like, fuck you, Vic Rhodes. You you're a bunch of shit kickers, you don't know how to do your job, you don't know how to manage anything, you're living like it's 1992, you're saying you want to save paper so I can't have a sticker, but you want to send me my notice in paper? What are you fucking dumb?

George: 12:28

Like Yeah, it's bureaucracy.

Robby: 12:31

Yeah, but it's a monopoly. It's a monopoly. Monopoly's illegal. Yes. Or it's against the law, against something. It's just like it's the first step towards tyranny.

George: 12:39

Yeah. Because it's like you have full control that's what that's what the whole government is based on these days. Yeah, but that's why they have two parties. Yeah, but since when's the last party won?

Robby: 12:48

They're not going to win the next one. Yeah, but that but that's the whole the whole thing is like you have an option, you're just not voting for them. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, exactly. With Vic Rhodes, there's no option. Yeah, but I can't go and register my vehicle with anyone else. Yeah, that's with all the government bodies, though. Yeah, but that that should change. That should change. You should you should start. Let's call it Robbie Rhodes. That would be sick. Vic Robbie. That would be mad. Oh, that would be all I'm saying is it wouldn't be anyone who'd be like, nah, but I'm loyal to Vic Rhodes. Like, no one.

George: 13:18

There would be no one. Simply go to their go to Google and look at their reviews. I haven't even looked at it, but I guarantee they're going to be no good. Here's the thing. Yes, I completely agree with you. And there's many bodies like that in industry, in everywhere. Council, local council's another one. Right? It's there's so many.

Robby: 13:37

Local council you vote the person in, dude. There is some level of control. You cannot control Vic Rhodes. There's zero control. And I was like, you fuck it. I'm gonna go off here. You motherfuckers, you took my you were happy taking 200 bucks a month off me for tolls, knowing my vehicle's unregistered.

SPEAKER_01: 13:52

Yeah.

Robby: 13:52

You're happy to give me parking fines, knowing my vehicle's unregistered. You're happy to accept every time I've paid for parking, knowing my vehicle's unregistered. Like, aren't these bodies communicating? If my car's unregistered, how can you take all my money for the other stuff? And then come and fine me a thousand bucks. Like, there's a level of, hey, I'm being fucked here. And I'm I dude, uh like on when it happened, I was trying so hard. I haven't had to try that hard for a while. You know when something's really been doing it? Yeah, yeah. And it's like I'm trying so hard to just shake it. Like, like, dude, it's not gonna matter in two weeks. I want to say week a week until um, but you know what I mean? And then it's like, man, I almost want to go out of my way and commit all my business knowledge and everything to getting this approved and creating a company and saying, I did it out of spite because I got pulled over that day. Yeah, because I got pulled over that day and they've shafted me. And I just thought, you know what? I've got to prove a point here. And I I think it's it's in our rights as humans, it's Australians, you know what I mean? What uh what's the national anthem? We are young and free. Are we free, dude? Like, are we? Nope. Do you know what I mean? When you when you have to, when they have full control and you have to go to one guy, it's it's a monopoly. It's everything though.

George: 15:15

It's you look at your whole day-to-day life, everything is like that.

Robby: 15:18

No, but there's there's every other element tends to have you get a choice. This is like one of the few things you don't get a choice. The illusion of a choice, yeah. You then you could argue there's corruption and it's the same person on the back end and blah blah blah.

George: 15:29

Exactly right. You're still getting the same shit happen, whether it's one party or the other, right? In government, for example, um, governing body. Okay, so we've got a the building and plumbing commission in the in the construction industry. Again, like they rebranded themselves the other day from the Victorian Building Authority to the BPC now, and it's like it's still the same clowns running it, it's still the same shit that you've got to go through. This the things that they come up with are just illogical. And I think that's where you get most upset. It's like you're not making sense. When people start stop making sense, it's like, what? Yeah, like you're not doing a usual job. Yeah, exactly. It's you're no wonder we're but this is why we're in so much debt. This is why there's so much inefficiencies or so many inefficiencies in how we operate as a state, as governing bodies, as a country, why we're in so much we're billions upon billions of dollars in debt. It's because you've got stupid people making stupid decisions, or people who don't have the don't have the authority or the knowledge to make decisions, and they're the ones making the rules. Yes, and it's it's just silly. And that's what's very frustrating that we are in this society and and living it like this. Like I know so many, I don't know if it's just lately I'm hearing about it, but I'm hearing a lot of people leaving the country. You know, you say you don't like it, leave. Well, people are doing that, man. People are doing that. Let all the immigrants come in and then just change the shape of the nation, let them do everything they need to do. But the people that are able and willing are leaving the country and they're going to to places like Dubai and living there for however long, or places where they're not just getting shafted on every turn. But if you think about it, when you really look down at it, a random thing. I was talking to someone the other day, recently sold a car. We're talking about cars. The luxury car tax, okay. Do you know why the luxury car tax was brought in? So you work at Mercedes.

Robby: 17:24

Yeah, I recall seeing it on cars, but I don't know.

George: 17:26

Yeah, so the luxury car tax was brought in to as a tax to prestige cars, so generally Mercedes or a vehicle over, let's just say$80,000. So anything over$80,000 had a luxury car tax on it. The reason for that tax was so that people could it would encourage Australians to buy Australian-made vehicles. Okay, so you're Holden, Ford, and Toyota. Because at the time, Holden, Ford, and Toyota were manufacturing in Australia, right? Now, how many vehicles do we manufacture in Australia?

Robby: 18:00

Now, yeah, none. None. So why is that tax still there?

George: 18:05

Because if you get used to this level of income, you can't reduce this is what I'm saying. Like, if you're talking about logical and all these things, like the why now is there a hundred thousand dollar tax if you want to go buy a Porsche? Like, why? So that now you're deterring those brands from coming into the country. You're deterring from people and businesses and these things coming into the country. Like, that's just one little thing. Stamp duty on houses. Do you know what the stamp duty was for? Why it was introduced? Stamp duty was introduced as a way to help the war relief, as relief for the war. When we were sending soldiers to get them bullets and grenades and tanks and all that sort of shit. That's why it was introduced as a war tax. When we haven't been at war for a very long time, yet every time you go and buy a house, oh stamp duty. What the fuck is stamp duty? What are you using that money for? Well, admin fee. Well, ridiculous admin fee. Like these are the things, and you look at across everywhere, everywhere. The whole board, it's all like that. But local government shits me up the wall. Like you're saying, oh, you get to vote a person in. They're all fucking idiots. All of them. I've not come across. I build in multiple areas, in multiple places. I've not come across a good council. Not none, not one. No, they're all duds, all of them. Like, I can't be. What is it? What is it? The other day we went there, we wanted to get a crossover permit. You know, the crossover, yeah. But yeah, for your drug for your house. We get a permit, right? So I knew the permit would take a while, so I told the team, hey, just put the application in, get the permit, we'll pour it. And like, okay, cool. So we get the permit, and then we're like, okay, we want to pour it on Friday. Oh no, you need you need to let us know 20 business days. Like, what? You've just taken three months to give us a fucking permit. Now you want 20 business days, so four weeks, so you can book someone to come in and inspect the work that we need to do. I've built a whole fucking five million dollar home, and you don't think I have the capacity to. Follow your stupid plan to build a$3,000 crossover. That's what you're telling me now. Or that you need to come and inspect and it's done properly. I'll take photos. Like simplify the process. Why 20 business days for someone to drive out, look at that, and go, oh, yep, good. A few years back. It's because they're not competing. Yeah, that yes, they have the monopoly on that spot in that sub. Yeah, is that wrong? It's completely wrong. And that's why we're all fucked and why everything costs a fortune in this country and why it's always so hard to get ahead. Two years, three, four years ago, whenever it was, I had a development site in Strathmore. Okay. Two fucking years to get a planning permit for two townhouses. Two fucking years. Yeah, that's right. That's silly. What? And we weren't, it's not like we were pushing the envelope and putting trying to put a 40-story building in a residential suburb. It was double-story townhouses. This would have enhanced the look of the of the area. Okay. Two years to get a planning permit, right? Because this person didn't like that tree and didn't like this shadow and didn't like that color on the driveways a little bit. You're like, oh, can you put a bigger tree here? And we're like, guys, can you give us one comprehensive assessment? Not we'll submit and then you, oh, I don't like this tree. Okay, we'll change a tree. Oh, I don't like this brick. For fuck's sake, we'll change the brick. And then what ended up happening? So we had two years of holding costs, you have two years of repayments and everything that you've got going with it. Interest, yeah. Interest that works. We got the permit finally, and we stacked it all up. We go, okay, what's this going to cost to build? Cool. Job's not no longer feasible. So we ended up selling. So you would have been you would have been done and finished in that. We if they had just, and this is where I say we should be privatizing that aspect of the of the plan. We should be privatizing planning.

Robby: 21:43

Yeah, dude. We should be privatizing uh so much. Like even AFL. Do you know what I mean? Like AFL now, like what they own the teams? How does it what's yeah? I don't know. It's like, why don't we do what America's done and privatize it? Yeah.

George: 21:55

Do you know what I mean exactly? Because some teams will become massive and others will become well, that's the real problem. Yeah. Make money, work it out.

Robby: 22:01

Do you know what I mean?

George: 22:02

Get back to people will it be the same three clubs that win the grand final every year?

Robby: 22:07

Is that what's fucking happening anyway?

George: 22:09

Nah, but like they're trying to they they try to have this equalization aspect of it.

Robby: 22:13

That's that's gay. That's what it is.

George: 22:16

It is it it is.

Robby: 22:17

Yeah, it's like stop it. But if you say that, you'll get in trouble. Let the people on the field. Let the people on the field.

George: 22:24

Yeah, if you say anything gay, you get suspended for 83 years.

Robby: 22:27

Oh yes, on the field. I don't want no let the people on the field. I'm like, what? Um let the people compete. Like that's real competition. Do you know what I mean? Oh no, but we have to let that and it's like, well, why don't you just let them compete for real? Real like real life doesn't give you handouts. Yeah. Real life causes causes you to compete for real. And I just think we're not doing things that are serving us as a society. Absolutely we're not. No, we're definitely not. Yeah, we're serving the in the we're serving the the we're serving nothing, dude. Nothing. There's this like there's a level of corruption that people don't want to admit to. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? How the fuck does someone get granted 96 million dollars to build a website?

SPEAKER_01: 23:06

Yeah, yeah.

Robby: 23:07

96 million dollars. Yeah, dude, I would have built a fuck. Like that upsets me. Could you have built a website for that much? Uh probably would have cost more. Yeah. 96. Who approved 96 million?

George: 23:20

Thank you. That's your money. That is the question. And that's what people are asking. And this is what shits me. Or the 13 million for the bins. That's right. But this is what I'm saying, right? I hear people saying this. I watch it's my feed's full of it these days. Uh, obviously the algorithm. Yeah, because I'm consuming it. But I'm seeing a lot of this stuff. I'm like, okay, people are catching on. They're saying, hey, why where's this money going? Why are you spending this? Why are you doing that? It's like, okay, it's great that you're asking the question, but then it stops. What's the next? Like, how come there's no consequence? How come, oi, 96? You go to jail. Because we go.

Robby: 23:57

Yeah, we don't have a system that's just you're fucked. We don't have a system that allows for it. That's and that's corruption. That's corruption, yeah. It's one corruption on the highest level.

George: 24:06

96 million this website's gonna cost, guys, website. Yeah, who built it? Who built it? And ones. I don't know.

Robby: 24:12

Who's the company that built the media? Legacy media. Who's the company that built it? Like how much money is that company making? 96 million? The 13 million for the bins.

George: 24:21

Whose pocket is being lined? That's right. Do you know what I mean? I was saying it the other day. I'm in construction to build a square box, okay, that you're gonna put machetes in. Okay, there might be a few more special features on there to make sure it's secure. What,$5,000 a box? In like labor and material. That's expensive. Okay, you know what? No, for gold is eight grand. Last time I started checked. Last time I checked. Hey, make it 20. Make it 20 grand a box. That is someone's making bank. Yeah? To build any at 20K, you got good money. The company building that is making a lot of money in labor and material. Yeah? Cool. Where did 330,000 per box come from? Yeah. Someone somewhere is getting fucking paid. Shut your mouth here. I'll give you, I'll give you 100 grand per box. You just need to do this. I'll give you 50 grand per box. You need to put them in these locations. I'll give you 10 grand a box. You just need to throw some knives in there once a fortnight so it looks like it's working. Okay. This is what's happening with this fucking space.

Robby: 25:22

So what what do you what do you um I I can tell you the solution. What's the solution? Vote number one. For George. For George.

George: 25:30

Do you think actually, you know what? Say I did get into power. Okay. I don't think I'd make any change. Because I thought someone's gonna have to light my pockets. No, that's it. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I feel that I would as that person, unless you I've just unless you've got full authority to just go all out and do what you want, I think you would probably encounter way too many roadblocks the way the system is at the moment. Yeah, but people would shut you down before you could even get started.

Robby: 25:58

Yeah, and I also think um the the structure of the system is incorrect. Like we vote every three years for to whoever's gonna lead the country. Yeah, and it's like you have a you you probably have a 30-year problem and people are being judged on three-year increments. And it's like the way you play a 30-year game is not the same way you play a three-year game. Yeah, do you know what I mean? And then everyone's jumping in, and they probably all have the mentality of, well, I'm not gonna have enough time to make the changes actually required. To do that, I've probably you've probably got to take a few steps back, so things will get worse before they get better. I'm just guessing. Yeah, yeah, you're probably not wrong. Yeah, but things will get worse before they get better, and then they're like, okay, and then it's like, but all governments do it, except the only ones that don't are like communist countries. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And it's like are they that bad? Should should Australia become a communist country? That's what we need. Dictate have a dictator. Look, all I'm saying is a little bit of freedom of choice, and you know, that's one thing I realize about America. They feel more free.

George: 26:58

Land of the free.

Robby: 27:00

They do. Despite you can say whatever you want. Fucked out, players, school shootings, blah blah blah blah. They feel more free. It's just the reality. They do. Um but that's enough about my rant. Fucking angry.

SPEAKER_01: 27:18

Yeah.

Robby: 27:19

And now uh I'm also I'm the sort of person where you know, if I'm angry, I want to see you angry as well. Okay. So one of the things one of the things I actually wanted to talk about today, George, was we haven't even started the topic yet. We haven't even started the topic yet, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:38

That was a whole thing. That was just Robbie, just a whole Robbie's Rance. And um It's our new segment, Robbie Rance.

Robby: 27:44

I'm gonna I'm gonna I've got a mission on this episode. And I'm gonna change your mind about something. Cool. I'm gonna change your mind about owner builders. Oh shit. Throw up. I'm gonna throw up. Now, if you know, if you know anything about George, and I've done this a couple times to you, and it only happened once uh where you've left the room, and I'm like, you want to piss George off? You've left the like we're doing an event, and you leave the room, and I'm like, hey guys, you want to piss George off? Tell him tell him uh you think owner builders are great. Yeah, you know, and it's gonna fire. Yeah. And you know, if you know anything about George, you know that he completely disagrees with the whole uh aspect of being able to be an owner builder. You know, and and I want to change your mind today. Cool, let's do it. I want to change your mind, or I want to attempt to change your mind. And maybe you'll change mine, and I'll turn around and be like, fuck owner builders, and fuck big roads. Big Rhodes as well. And that police lady, dude. I would I would that big roads thing, I'm serious about that. Like I I will What a business venture. Oh, dude, I will stop everything I'm doing. Robbie Rhodes and do that, and just do that and be like, this is the mission, we just need to get it approved, get enough people to back it, and then you get approved, and then can I get some if I back you?

George: 29:06

Can I get free registration?

Robby: 29:07

Of course. Everyone who backs gets free registration. Um anyway. So George. Tell us why you get fired up about this. Give us the give us the spill. Why do you think so? If for those of you who don't know, you're listening to this and you don't know, George hates sorry, let me rephrase that. George just despises a despised. He completely thinks that owner builders should not be a thing and that you should not be allowed to build your own home. Can you give us just for those of who may not have heard this from you before, owner builders means you can build your own house. Yeah, right. You can act as a builder, you can be licensed, fake license, paper license, like you might as well use monopoly money. And uh build your own home. Uh, why do you believe owner builders should not be allowed?

George: 29:59

They should not be allowed because I said so. No, they shouldn't be allowed at all because they are not qualified or educated or skilled enough to do so.

Robby: 30:12

Okay. Do you think it brings any benefit? What what harm do you think it does to the industry?

George: 30:19

I think inferior products, things done outside of but what's that gotta do for you? They can't sell it because then yeah, of course they can.

Robby: 30:29

They can sell the house, yeah. But they can't sell their service. No, that's right. So you you being licensed gives you the ability to sell the service. Yes, because it's a professional service. Correct. You can buy the service, I can do it for you. Yep. That's the license. The license is to do that.

George: 30:46

Yeah, the license is not to build, but then it's also taking away from builders that should be able to build those things, right?

Robby: 30:53

Those homes, because now we have a lack of homes being built.

George: 30:58

That's not because of a lack of builders or their ability to build. What is it? It's a whole range of things. It's got uh it would be um it would be the financial pressures, it would be the legislative restriction restrictions on builders as well. You know, some builders are only capped with how much money, how much they can build per year. I'm sure a lot of them could build more, but they're capped with what they can do.

Robby: 31:26

You reckon most builders are sitting at their insurance.

George: 31:28

Yeah, yeah, I think a lot would be. Yeah. Yeah, I think there would be more than more than not. So more than half. Yeah, without a doubt. Without a doubt. Because a lot of the builders are, especially when they first start out, they're given like, I don't know, a million bucks. Oh, you here you can build up to a million dollars. That's nothing in construction. So they should be given more. It should be uh they should have the ability to prove themselves and go, okay, cool, you've done this long, this long, or this many projects. Yep, you get this much more, and so on and so forth. So there is a an element of that. And yeah, people are not uh a builder will always be able to build something to a better, to a higher standard quicker, and ultimately should cost you less in the long run.

Robby: 32:09

You believe that.

George: 32:10

Yeah, I do, I do.

Robby: 32:11

I do. Okay, so let's let's the the of course they should do it quicker. Of course they should do a better job. Uh even from the cost perspective as well.

George: 32:20

I do believe in the long run? Yeah, absolutely. Why? Well, how long okay? Let's say you're doing an a house owner builder. Yeah. You're doing your house now, owner builder. You also have a job. I have an employee not a job, you have a company that you've got to run too, yeah? Yep. So when are you building your house? Do you take every Monday off?

Robby: 32:42

Do it in your on your weekends. On your weekends? Yeah.

George: 32:44

Okay. So you do it after work and on the weekends. Yeah. So how long do you think that would take you to build a house now?

Robby: 32:50

So should you build it as an owner builder? I think it'll take you over a year, probably a year.

George: 32:53

It takes me a year for a big home. Okay. So it'll take it'll take you through to three, four years. Nah. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I do it every day. Four years? I do it every day. You do it on the weekends and sometimes after work if you can be fucked. Yeah, but so you're hosting engaging people and yeah, we are as builders, or you are? Both. Yeah, okay. So when a carpenter comes up to me and I say and he says, George, for me to build this frame, it's gonna cost you$350,000. And we say, Robbie. Does that much a frame goal? No, it doesn't. Oh. Exactly. Hey, exactly. Yeah. All right. Because he's gonna tell me, George, it's cost$350,000. Hey, stop being a fucking idiot. Do I look like an owner builder to you? Give me a proper price. So I was just sorry, George prices. All five will do the same thing to you. Hey. All five are gonna do the same. So trades are dodgy. They're not dodgy. They understand the game. They're gonna come in and see Robbie the owner builder and go, okay, Robbie's not getting the same price as George. George gives me lots of work. George understands construction. George is gonna be ready for me when the time is needed for me to come on site and build my frame. Not I have to babysit and hold his hand and tell him all these sorts of things. The owner builders are heavily reliant on the trades to do the right thing. If trades all did the right thing, there'd be no need for builders. If people did what they were supposed to do, there would be no need for a builder. I wouldn't need to employ anyone. I'd just say, hey, can you go to this job and do this? Yes, it's consider it done. Okay, great. Then I just call the next trade from my office. Can you go do this? Yes, it would be done. Owner builders are heavily reliant on the trades to run the job, guide them, and to do the right thing. Yeah. And they've got no checks and balances. They will always prioritize their main income stream. So me as their main client and builder, hey, I need you here. Finish this job. I got this owner builder. Fuck that guy. Do this job. I need this done by Friday. Okay, yeah, you're right. Calls up the owner. Hey, sorry, I can't get there till Wednesday next week or till Tuesday next week. Whatever it might be. So there's delays. There's the delay.

Robby: 34:55

But that's kind of expected. It's never going to happen as time.

George: 34:58

This is where I'm getting at, right? Time is important. Okay, let's just say you're anyway. Let me continue. So there's that element. There's the carpenter's going to charge you$200,000 to do the frame. The carpenter's going to charge me$70,000. Because hey, I'm just I'm trying to give you an example. Yeah. And I hold on. That's a that's an ex like give us a realistic.

Robby: 35:19

It would be at le it could be up to a 50% markup from what I would think. 50% increase. So they charge you$100,000 that would charge the owner builder$150. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah.

George: 35:30

You wouldn't be surprised in what you expect as two different things. Yeah, but I'm telling you, like I've I know, I've seen, I see, I speak to trades. None of them like it. I haven't come across a trade. The only reason they'll like it is because they're making bank. Okay. They'll come in. The owner is heavily reliant on that person to do the right thing and to do the next stage. They couldn't give a fuck. They've got so much more other work that they need to be doing, right? And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, I spoke to the plumber, told him to do this, this, he should be right. He should be finished his rough in. Then you go there and you look at, oh, the pipe's, the pipe is a hundred. Look, they've put the pipe here. It should be a hundred mil there.

unknown: 36:04

All right.

George: 36:04

A hundred mil in the other direction. You don't know. You've never built before. The builder's going to look at that, say, hey, dickhead, that's in the wrong spot. Doesn't it? Oh, I've got to, oh, well, jack the slab up, move it over 100. Oh, that's going to cost you$500. Oh, okay, here. Okay. They do, there is so many moving parts in a home. There are so many things that you need to know, need to understand that we've studied, that we've experienced, that we've coordinated, that we've done all before, that you are going to pay for through your lack of experience. So not only are you going to be paying a premium for someone else to come in and do it, you're also going to be paying for your mistakes that you make along the way. It's also going to take you 10 times longer. And chances are the quality of what you're being of what being built isn't going to be there. And now these days, people will go into a home. Say you do decide to sell it. Okay. Because a lot of people do that. I'll do owner builder and flip it and become some hotshot developer, then I'll move on to the next one and move on to the next one. People know what they're looking at. They walk into a home and they'll see, oh, that's no good. Oh, that's a bit off. Oh, that detail looks messy, right? Because they don't know construction.

Robby: 37:06

Yeah, hold on, hold on, hold on. So you just contradicted two things. Like so the person inspecting knows, but the person building doesn't know?

George: 37:15

No, as in when you're looking at a finished product, it's a lot easier to judge stuff. Like I always say this you could build the best fucking home, but if you fuck up plaster and paint, the job's fucked. Yeah, it's the aesthetic. Yeah, that's the things that people look at. Yeah. But there's things behind I would never, I found out, okay, there was a house on my street that sold uh a few years back. We were looking at it, we were gonna put in an offer, and then I found out it was owner builder, I pulled out straight away. Pulled out straight away. The agent calls me up, he's like, Oh, you're gonna put an offer, go in the heart, dude. I'm out. It's like why? It's owner builder. Um he goes, no, no, it's a good job. I said, mate, delete my number. I'm not coming back. I am not a per I will not buy this house. And um, I've moved away from it. There could be issues that come down the track, they won't know the the waterproofing codes, they won't know a thousand and one things. There's just so isn't there? So but there's regulations. One little thing. But who's regulating it? The surveyor. No, he's not. He's not. No. He checks all the he does, he checks the documentation. Yeah. Right? That it all complies with your standards. He'll come and check the frame and then he does a final walkthrough. That's it. After he checks the structural frame, that's it. Then he does a final walkthrough. He doesn't check services locations, he doesn't check if wires have run properly, he doesn't check if the waterproofing's done properly. He just wants a certificate that shows that everyone tells him, yes, I've done it. So he'll want his certificate so he can pass the buck if anything ever does happen, but no one checks it. So this is where you have to have someone who's knowledgeable and understands what they're doing, as opposed to an owner builder. They will never do it. And it's not like I don't blame the owner builders, honestly. The law, the system is there for them to do it. So it's not their fault. Like the, hey, I'm just doing what I'm allowed to do, but the system needs to change.

Robby: 39:00

So you think that most people wouldn't benefit?

George: 39:08

No, not in the long run. I don't believe so. And I know where you're going with this, by the way. You've been building something recently yourself, haven't you?

Robby: 39:17

Me, nah.

George: 39:17

You haven't?

Robby: 39:18

I haven't, no.

George: 39:19

Okay.

Robby: 39:19

And that's not a that's a a uh I call it a renovation more than anything else. But we're not gonna go there. We're not gonna go there and raise council awareness. Um exactly. You know how it's funny as well. This is a structure, a side note. Yeah, and I spoke to a couple of builders.

SPEAKER_01: 39:34

Yeah.

Robby: 39:35

Uh, you being one of them. Um, just like a couple others, and they were every time I they're like, hey, I'm like, yeah. They're like, are you building in the legal structure? Like, no, man, it's already there. Like the the structure already exists. We're just changing, like replacing it. Oh, just fixing it. Yeah, that's it. Replacing it, replacing it. So it's like, because like, are you are you building a legal structure with no permit? And I'm like, no. Relax, Mr. Council. Mr. Council. Man. Jesus. This guy's gonna call the cops. Um yeah, so I'm not doing anything illegal, I promise. Uh, for those of you listening. Um I I I do feel like though. And and you know, I I do feel like I'd be an exception to the rule, but I do feel like I could I would Yeah, I believe you.

George: 40:19

Uh yes, I think there's people out there that have uh that are cluey, right? To do it. Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure there would be. And even if you're perhaps you're a carpenter and you want to do owner builder, that he's a carpenter's probably the best qualified person to do an owner builder job because they do so much of that element. In saying that, but let's pretend now you're quite cluey, even from the perspective of you're a mechanic and you're a logical person, and you look at how things work and it kind of makes sense to you. But let's pretend you're a school teacher, okay? Or let's pretend you're a butcher. Okay, you've never had that level of experience. You've never had any other things.

Robby: 40:55

So they so they they don't have to do I think there's gotta be some level of like you would have to at least get slightly educated around that.

George: 41:06

To a degree, yeah. If you want to do it properly, there's gonna have to be a level of study or understanding. Like, how can they possibly open structural drawings? Never looked at anything, never understood it, and go, what do those black dots mean? What did that what does that mean? What does that depth mean? Oh, this says it has to, this says the footing has to be 600 mil. So I'm gonna do it at 600 mil. So what do you know that you need to do that's not so I could tell you whether if you dig a a trench that's 600 mil deep because the structural drawings say 600 mil, that doesn't mean that that's how deep it has to be. It could mean it needs to go deeper because of blinding concrete. And you would have no idea blinding concrete, what it can't see. Like, what's that? That's do you know what I mean? Like there's so many things there. How would they know what depth they needed to put their footings at? And then they just do it at 600 mil because that's what the drawings say. But hang on, that's incorrect. If you read the soil report, the soil report will tell you if you don't reach founding material, you need to actually excavate deeper. And these are like little things, like that's a huge structural thing, man. Because the whole house will stand up. Yeah, you will finish that home and it will stand on that. And then a year later, you're gonna see a huge crack in the wall. And then a year after that, the whole thing's gonna collapse. Okay, because of certain things. Now, no one's gonna know. And what if to say they build it and they sell it that next day and it looks fantastic when they sell it and then all the issues come up?

Robby: 42:26

Is there should there be some level of liability as to how yes, there should be. Yes. How long you have to hold the house for?

George: 42:34

There there should there's definitely got to be more strict things in place without a doubt. Now, whether that's mandatory inspections at multiple stages, potentially, before you are you trying to tell me they have no none, mate. I know, yes, because I don't do them. They're not required for when we are building a home. But you're licensed. Yeah. Yeah, but if you're not going to be able to own a builder, you think nothing changes? Nothing will change. The building surveyor, his obligation. So why then why come out is to come out and inspect the frame. So he'll he'll come out and inspect your structural, like your say you've got a slab on the ground, he'll he'll inspect that before you pour the concrete. Then he will inspect the frame, so the timber and structural steel. And they're the only two inspections that he will do before he does a final walkthrough. That's it. Then he'll do a final walkthrough, and then before he gives you the occupancy permit, he'll go, okay, I need all of these certificates from all of these trades. And then that's when the trades give you all your certificates. He goes, Yep, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Okay, here's your occupancy permit. So he won't actually check all of those things. He he gets a certificate that says the waterproofer has said they have waterproofed it in accordance with these standards. And if he gives him a letter and says that, you know, his mate Jamal has done the waterproofing. Here you go, here's your waterproofing certificate. Really, he's just slapped on a piece of membrane. Now that thing's not going to leak for the first year. Right? And then there'll be some movement in the house, there'll be whatever it might be, a tile might crack, then it's gonna leak. Then it goes downstairs, then it wrecks all the plaza, then you know, back to square one.

Robby: 44:09

Do you so so do you believe that the world would be better? Sorry, not the world, yeah, the country, yeah, would be better off if they said no more owner builders. Yep. Do you think that's the best next step?

George: 44:26

Now, don't get me wrong, I think they should be able to. What if they you want to if you want to paint your house, okay, if you want to put in a new kitchen, if you want to do some minor renovation work, yeah, absolutely. If you're taking if you're talking about knocking down a whole home, starting from fresh or doing a huge massive renovation, then yeah, you got problems. You cannot un you cannot a 99% of the people cannot dedicate their time and their mental capacity to building that home. 99% of the people takes longer. Yeah, but that's partly that's part of the reason. That's part of the problem. You're doing it full-time. That's part of the problem, though. With these people now, they cannot commit their everything to that home. They can't do it. And the reason they're doing owner builder is so they can save a dollar, meaning they have to have be, they have to work Monday to Friday so they can afford to build the home on the weekend. Okay, so these people are the wrong people to be building the home. They're gonna they're gonna come into trouble. They're not gonna build a quality product, they're gonna do things that are gonna be significantly that are gonna have a really negative impact financially to them.

Robby: 45:31

Okay, so who who's to say that I if I hire a builder, I wouldn't have that same experience? Because the builder comes across something that they haven't experienced before. No more owner builders. Yep. You think that's the best next step?

George: 45:46

Now, don't get me wrong, I think they should. What if they you want to if you want to paint your house? Okay, if you want to put in a new kitchen, if you want to do some minor renovation work, yeah, absolutely. If you're taking if you're talking about knocking down a whole home, starting from fresh or doing a huge massive renovation, then yeah, you got problems. You cannot, and you cannot a 99% of the people cannot dedicate their time and their mental capacity to building that home. It takes longer. Yeah, but that's partly that's part of the reason. That's part of the problem. You're doing it full-time. That's part of the problem, though. With these people now, they cannot commit their everything to that home. They can't do it. And the reason they're doing owner builder is so they can save a dollar, meaning they have to have be, they have to work Monday to Friday so they can afford to build the home on the weekend. Okay, so these people are the wrong people to be building the home. They're gonna they're gonna come into trouble. They're not gonna build a quality product, they're gonna do things that are gonna be significantly that are gonna have a really negative impact financially to them.

Robby: 46:50

Okay, so who who's to say that I if I hire a builder, I wouldn't have that same experience? Because the builder comes across time that they haven't experienced before.

George: 47:00

Yeah, well, that's but this is where you will have contracts in place. You have you've got to do your due diligence as well and make sure that the builder, the right person for the job is employed. You have a level of responsibility. You know, a lot of people say, Oh, you know, the the pay the builder is always painted out as a bad guy. Always in every scenario.

Robby: 47:16

I know lots of people that if you ask them, they'll say never build.

George: 47:20

Yeah, they'll they'll go to the worst thing.

Robby: 47:22

Don't ever build.

George: 47:22

Yeah, don't ever build's the worst thing ever. But that's because they don't understand. And I have a level of I don't even know who they are. I can't say that. They don't, I don't need to. They don't have a level, they don't have a level of they need to take a level of responsibility with that. They selected the fucking builder. You selected the person that you said that you said don't build with ever again. I'm never gonna build. Because on the same hand, you'll have people that say, Oh, building was amazing.

Robby: 47:45

Taking responsibility and saying it was a bad experience is not the same thing.

George: 47:48

Why was it a bad experience? I don't know. Yeah. So I'm just most of the time they'll say the builder didn't give us what we wanted, or the builder um ripped us off, or they didn't do the right thing, or whatever it might be. There'll be a whole range of things that come up in their list of why you should never build. But the fact of the matter remains, if that was your experience, that's vastly because of the person that you chose to build. Your home. So I often say, like when I'm trying to educate people, not just builders, but also clients, to say, well, this is what you need to look for. This is what we do. Is it really upfront? And I've learned this through experience too, by not saying these things. Um, and now when we have a process in place of onboarding a new client, I sit with them and spend a decent amount of time and say, hey, this is how this process is going to go. Don't I want you to understand you are we I've never in my life, never in my life, in my professional career, built a home without a variation. And I never will. So I want you to understand that right now before we sign. You need to have a contingency of money that's gonna need to happen on this build. It's a fixed lump sum contract, yes, but things always come up. There are things on this build that I cannot allow for. If you want me to allow for these things, these un these maybes, I can. But the risk you run there is my price is gonna be up here. If I have to take the whole risk of everything. So, say for example, we're building a basement in a suburb that has a lot of rock.

Robby: 49:18

You're gonna hit rock.

George: 49:19

Yeah, I'm gonna hit rock. Now, I can do one of two things with this. If the owner's that type of person, maybe they're a multi-billionaire. So, George, I don't want to, I don't want to talk to you. Just give me a basement. Leave it with me. I will assume from the moment I drive my excavator on site, everything is rock because that's what the soil report's gonna tell me. Now, if I dig two meters down and two meters isn't rock, that means that two meters worth of rock is all my like of lack of rock, that's all my money. I get to keep that. But now, and then it's just the one meter worth of rock. Okay, well, I'll dig, I'll jack that out. So he's he's now sacrificed that potential saving. Whereas if I say, look, I'm going to exclude rock, whenever I encounter it, say it's at a meter deep or two meters deep, then you pay. So there's always going to be variations that come up through things that are unforeseen. I've got a job now, the storm, the sewer pipe coming into the property. The sewer pipe coming into the property needs to be relocated. That's an authority fee. I cannot ever allow for that. I don't know where it is. This is an authority fee, and I can't even do the work. I have to engage an approved contractor to do the work. So that's a cost to the owner. And I explained these at the these things. Hey, these things could come up. It doesn't always, but it could come up. You need to understand that you're going to have this, this, this, and this risk. That's just one little thing. There's a whole range of things that we sit down and go through with them about their obligations, their responsibilities, our obligations, our responsibilities, how we document, how we communicate, how we invoice, how they can do inspections, everything. And make it a really enjoyable process for them, not just one of those stories about I'm never going to build again, or don't ever build again. That's the worst thing you could ever possibly do. Building should be an enjoyable process and is an enjoyable process when you have the right person on board. But you need to understand that it is still there, there's always things that come up. Like it's a complicated profession. It's not an easy profession.

Robby: 51:21

What would you say is an easy profession? Oh. Because like I'm sure everyone thinks they've done's hard. Do you reckon?

George: 51:28

Yeah, I don't know. Do you think being a baroster is hard? Comparatively. Do you know what I mean? There's levels to it. Yeah, they also don't get paid anywhere near as much. No, of course. But there's okay, I'd say what makes it difficult is there's so many elements in the one thing. There's so and different elements. Like think about the complexities of what a plumber needs to do, and then the complexities of what an electrician needs to do, and then a carpenter, and then a concreter, and then all of these elements need to tie in and work together harmoniously for this building to work properly and for everyone to be happy. That's where it's the difficulties come in. And if you don't know what you're doing for all of those elements to come together and work properly, that's when you have issues.

Robby: 52:13

The other day I got a phone. So wouldn't issues be more focused around like there's obviously defects stuff that's gonna go wrong.

George: 52:21

There's acts, there's regulations, there's basics that people need to follow. The quality of drawings are vastly important. Like we've had projects that have really poor documentation, they tend to have a lot of variations. We have projects that are really, really detailed. I prefer those types of drawings because it removes a lot of the ambiguities and also gives us the detail we need. And we can say, no, that pipe needs to run here because that's where it's documented. Whereas you'll have another set of drawings which just say plans and then you have to guess where everything goes or you got to plan as you're building. Really? So yeah, yeah, absolutely. They won't have things like pipe runs or like, but again, it's how much money those sets of plans will cost you 200 grand. These sets of plans will cost you 30. Okay, but that should save you a lot of money on site when you're building. These, this here, expect a good 30, 40, 50, 100 grand worth of changes that you're going to need to make to suit services. That's still cheaper, though. It it could be. It could be, but it might not be. But it's also expenses that they weren't expecting. Oh, the builder fucked up. Hang on, mate, you gave me the drawings. I didn't make these drawings. So this is where the expectation and reality really need to come into play.

Robby: 53:29

Yeah, but so so don't you think so? You're telling me that there's zero competency required to become an owner builder. Sorry, zero competency, what do you mean? Like as in the amount of what a person has to do to become an owner builder.

George: 53:51

You just need to own your home.

Robby: 53:52

That's it. That's it.

George: 53:54

So you could be blind. You could be blind. You just need to own your home. There are per the permit process, or I haven't gone through it myself because I don't need to be owner builder, but um the process is a little bit different as far as a permit's concerned. But other than that, it's once you've got your building permit, build your house. Go.

Robby: 54:20

Do you think having AI at your disposal would help?

George: 54:23

Yeah.

Robby: 54:24

I think it would.

George: 54:26

Do you think I think it's helped my team. So why wouldn't it help someone that has no idea? What's if I said, hey, what are these vertical beats of timber called in a in a timber wall? Oh, these are commonly referred to as studs. Okay, what's the horizontal parts that go about halfway through? Oh, these are called this, this, and this. So yes. Noggins. Noggins. Yeah, so like that's yes, for as far as an education thing, I think, yeah, AI would help.

Robby: 54:52

Uh do you think there is a there is a world where if let's just say they regulated it a little bit more. I think that would help. Yeah, and when I say regulated it a little bit more, like maybe you had to sit a one week, two-week night school thing to be able to go and because like dude, if you can if you can sell a house from doing one week of an online program in real estate and you're licensed to sell a house, which I think's silly. Surely they can do the same thing here.

SPEAKER_01: 55:35

To build?

Robby: 55:38

Yeah.

George: 55:38

Okay, so to get your actual building.

Robby: 55:44

Because they teach you estimating and everything. No, they don't. They do. I've I've gone gone through it. With who? Master builders. Teach you estimating. They teach you estimating, yeah. They make you do a whole estimation.

George: 55:55

You don't need to do that to go get your license though.

Robby: 55:58

To do the license, nah, but to do the search for, I'm pretty sure it's okay.

George: 56:03

Yeah, there might be an element. Yes, yeah, okay. Yeah, to go get that, yeah.

Robby: 56:06

Um, yeah, yeah. I'll I'll plan like if this whole thing burns out and apply for a job in Pascal. I can't afford I won't be able to afford you. Um but you know what I mean? It's like, okay, well, maybe if they just showed someone enough to say, hey, like you can do this, because I I I don't see it. I've never seen anyone hate it as much as you. Like you hate it, hate it. Um miss as much as your part, you're fine. No, no, that's that's that's that's actual problems.

SPEAKER_00: 56:35

This is real world stuff. Yeah, this is real life. This is real life with you right now.

Robby: 56:39

Yeah. But do you see a world where if they set some level of competency or or there need to be, I think there would be a a higher level of competency.

George: 56:48

There'd need to be a strategic plan. There'd need to be someone that either they need to employ or so. How does it impact you? How does it impact George? How does it impact me? Yeah. Well, it would be I would say there would be work. Well, it kind of I I think I take it personally from the perspective of oh, so anyone can build. I see how fucking hard it is and what we go through every single day, and we're the best at what we do, and you can just fucking do it because you own the home. Cool, I'm owner dentist. That's not the same. I'm owner teacher. Hey? I'm owner teacher. Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, I'm we'll go teach your kids. You can't homeschool. No, I'll teach them about in class. I'll go to a school. They're gonna be your kids. No, no, no. I'll say it's gonna be your land.

Robby: 57:28

No, no, it's a fact. That's a good con that's a really good point you just made. I'll probably teach my kids better, though. Hey, I would teach my kids good.

George: 57:35

But I couldn't, you know what? Hold on, no, no, I couldn't do it. So now, okay. I couldn't teach my kids, no. Because I still have to work. Yeah, okay. So how am I gonna go home and teach my kids when I have to be here and work? All right, so if I didn't have to work, I could do owner builder. You'd be better at it if you could commit your full time and energy to it, yeah. You would be better at it. Okay, so there'd be more of you that someone argued, but as I said, 99% of the people that are doing owner builder are doing it because they want to have it build a cheaper home, but in the long run it won't be cheaper. It's gonna take them more time. The trades they'll employ will cost them more. Even you, like if you were doing a full-time, people would come and say, Oh, I own a builder? Yeah, cool. How are you to know what a piece of timber costs? How are you to know what um what carpenters charge and all that sort of stuff until you get burnt a few times, until the carpenter charges you$200 an hour, and then you find out from me is like, how much a carpenter charge you?$200 an hour, mate. He should be charging you$80. Like, what?

Robby: 58:36

I mean made$200 for six months. So, first of all, carpenters look really bad right now. But secondly, I I don't and this might be my naivety. There's two things. One, I don't believe that like can people get ripped off 100%. Yeah, but I think people get ripped off in all facets of life, you know. Um, I think it's about you using your due diligence there. The same way some people get ripped off by a builder.

George: 59:02

Yep.

Robby: 59:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. People get ripped off by the other.

George: 59:04

Yeah, and I that's the argument I'll hear. They'll say, oh, well, what about if you know I've had people who build a home better than a builder? And so, but that's that's like saying I can run, therefore I should be able to compete with Usain Bolt. But it's like, okay, yes, I can run. That doesn't mean I'm running. Because like you're comparing a bad builder to a good builder.

Robby: 59:26

No, okay, let me know.

George: 59:27

And Usain's a good runner. I'm not a good runner. Even now, with him in his at his current age and fitness level, he'll still he'll still laugh at me.

Robby: 59:35

Let me give you a different example. It's like someone saying to you, you can't educate your kids better than a school teacher can.

George: 59:44

Dep yeah, depending what it was, I'd probably there'd be a level of me agreeing to that. Yeah. Depending on what they're being taught.

Robby: 59:54

You don't reckon you could teach better than a school teacher. And then you would argue I can probably teach better than most.

George: 1:00:00

Yeah, I know because I'm in that space and I do that as in the coaching space. But I'd say from the perspective of man, like knowing the structure, like I'm sure there's things that teachers are taught, as in the curriculum. I don't know what that is, I don't know what has to be taught. And then do I have to go back now and learn maths? So you're trying to tell you a certain way. I don't know. You think your kids would be better off? If I homeschooled, it wouldn't be me teaching, it'd be someone I employ to teach. Yeah. But no, that's not that's a good idea. I don't think I would be better than someone else. You don't think you'd be better than the average school teacher? No, I didn't say average school teacher. Why am I going why am why would I do that? Because I an average builder?

Robby: 1:00:46

What uh what's the term average defined by? Just good enough. Like, I don't know. No, it's the masses. Yeah. The middle. The middle of the masses. Well, not the middle, that's the median or whatever the fuck that term is, mean. Um, but it's like if you multiplied everyone together and divided it by the end, that's the average. Yeah. So it's like, well, if most of them are shit, then the average is gonna be shit. If most of them are good, then the average is gonna be quite high. Yep. But it's like you have to work off the average because that's the kind of point that is gonna tell you that this is where Yeah, but I would employ, I wouldn't employ an average person to teach my children. Yeah, but no one employs a builder saying this guy seems average.

George: 1:01:26

I I would I've I would argue that the industry is heavily skewed on price. Heavily. People's decisions, I'd say close to 80% of people's decisions on employing a builder to build their home is based off price. Yeah, but not because why? Because that's how they're programmed. They're looking at it and going, okay, George is a million dollars, this guy's 900, this guy's 600, I'm gonna go for the guy that's 700. Like they're price-driven. They say, oh, they're both saying they're gonna give me the same thing. They're not. All three, all four of those prices are completely different. What I'm offering and what the seven and eight and six hundred guy is offering is completely different. You're not getting the same thing.

Robby: 1:02:05

Yeah, again, I'm not saying that. So my point is, then would they be better off building themselves than building the 600 guy?

George: 1:02:15

No, uh again, no, no, but this is why why would you pick the 600 guy? I'm just giving it because that guy's not the suitable builder for it, and that's why they're saying, oh, like what deems a builder suitable if they've got a life.

Robby: 1:02:29

It's broken. Huh? The system's broken, like coming back to what you're saying. But then you're saying your your argument is that you should not be able to do this unless you're part of the system, but you're saying the system's broken.

George: 1:02:39

The system, there are stere are many, there are thousands upon thousands of excellent builders out there. There are also thousands of shit builders. What's the average builder? Okay, I I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to answer that. But there are excellent builders out there, and there are things that you should look at. You should look at their past projects, you should look at their website, you should look at their fucking email account. Does it say Pascon at gmail.com or does it say George at Pascon.com? Because that is the number one fucking indicator if you're a good builder or not. Do not have a Gmail or Hotmail account, okay? You heard it here first. Well, yeah. Their branding, their marketing, uh, uh their testimonials, like a whole range of things. Meet with them, walk through projects with them. How do they communicate? What are their contracts like? What are their terms like? How do they communicate? Like you will get the feeling. You will understand who you want to build with. The other day I won a project and I was the exact same. I asked the client, I said, why did you choose us over the other builder? He goes, your prices were within$10,000 of each other, like you were pretty much thereabouts. He goes, I felt more comfortable with you. He goes, that's why I ended up going with you. I just I appreciated all the work you're putting in. I like the things you were saying. I understood what you were about. I liked all your projects, your website, everything. I felt more comfortable with you. And I know that you're the right builder for me. And like, great, he's won the lottery. Because I am the right builder for him. I am going to be give him an amazing product. I am going to give him an amazing service. You need to go and do your research and find the things. When I go and buy a car, I do my research. I don't just go, I'm going to get that one. Oh, look, okay, well, what model in the car do I want? Do I want the base model? Do I want the sunroof? Do I want the V8 or the V6? Do I want that brand? Am I going to go get this brand? Like, do your research and understand exactly what you're getting for the money you're paying for. If this guy here is 600K and this guy's a million, there's a big reason for that. There is a big reason for that. You often, you know, those types of people, they're expect they pay the least, expect the most. It's not going to work that way. When have you ever gotten something really cheap and gone, oh, like, gonna crush it now. This is the best thing I've ever bought. Doesn't happen that often. Yes, you find the gems. Okay, I'm not saying all cheap builders are fucking shit. Okay, there might be a new up and comer that's a great builder, and he's just trying to get his foot in the door and get that new project. Cool, go for that. But just do your due diligence. I think owners have a huge level of responsibility when selecting the right builder.

Robby: 1:05:03

Yeah, of course. And then it doesn't matter.

George: 1:05:05

That puts pressure, that puts pressure- You're just deflecting the No, but okay, let's go back. That puts pressure then on everything on the industry because then that trade has gone in so cheap, he's gonna then go try find the cheapest. Sorry, that builder's gone in cheap. He's gonna go out and try to find the cheapest prices so he can make a dollar as well. Now imagine they got rid of owner builders, then there would technically be an influx of workout. How many, how many people do you reckon build owner builders? I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you, but let's just pretend it's a hundred thousand. You know, I don't know. But there would be an influx, say you can no longer do owner builders. There should be an influx of work creating more competition. How many houses get built a year? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't look at these stats. Like I wouldn't know. I can tell you four. No, no, but I'm building them all. Like, I don't know. It'd be a million-ish. No, I think they're well. No, I think it's like hundreds of thousands. We need I think we need to hit a target of like a million, and we're building like 150.

Robby: 1:06:02

In Australia, around 170, 180,000.

George: 1:06:04

That's Australia. That's fuck all. Yeah. Yeah? That is fuck all for what we actually need to do. So you you someone comes out and says, cool, no more owner builders. Now, everyone that has to build has to build through a registered builder. That will, in effect, create more competition. You should be getting more competitive pricing. You should be getting the right people in to do the job. That's it. Instead of a job taking you three years, you'll be in and out in 10 months. You will get a job done properly, you'll get one that holds, you get a person that holds the warranties that looks after the home.

Robby: 1:06:34

So it's in the 40,000. Sorry? So it's almost 25%. 41%. 40,000 owner builders. Well, there you go. There you go. So 40,000 projects.

George: 1:06:43

Way more than I thought it was going to be. There you go. 40,000 projects hit the market tomorrow. Okay, there you go. Okay, great. Let's go. They will get a product that they're happy with. They'll get a product that they can move into that has warranties associated with it, that has peace of mind. If they do their due diligence and select the right builder, okay, like the building industry, there's this misconception that it's dodgy. All right. I still haven't met one of these dodgy builders. I haven't met a person that's going out there with the intent to screw over their client. I don't think they have the intent. Yeah, I'm sure there's not, but it's also even the knowledge. I've still yet to meet some of them. Do they exist? Absolutely, guys. Absolutely. I'm sure there are builders out there that shouldn't be registered. There are probably builders out there that make mistakes, that try and cover it up, that are tight asses and want to use the cheapest materials and the cheapest trades. Yes, they exist, but that exists in all facets of business. There is a cheap florist, there is a cheap dentist, there is a cheap fucking butcher and media agency. Okay, we often talk about the quality of the content that you create versus the bloke that charges$50 a video. And you're like, what? You someone comes to you and says, Hey, uh Robbie, why am I paying you two grand for this video? You know, this has a 32-megapixel camera. I could just do that. Robbie, I just got a three million view video that I filmed on my phone. Why am I going to pay you$2,000 to make me a video? Why? Can you do a better video than me? But I can do one. That's what that's what's facing now. Imagine you said there was a law that came out and said, no, no, you have to employ a quality person to do a registered person to do video content. That's probably not a good example, but um I'm just ranting now. I'm just ranting. Yeah, but let's. You know what I mean? Like I feel that yes, I still think it would be a positive change for the space in the industry. And look, maybe there needs to be, not maybe, not maybe. I'm out doing these builder elite events and and and look, I make a lot more money in my construction company than I do the events and training space. But you know, my there has been a huge element of me genuinely wanting to go out there and help builders and help improve the industry. As much as I say, yes, this is about me making money and and making my legacy and doing all that sort of stuff. Yes, there obviously it's a business, it's not a charity. But there's there is a level that builders do need, not just the tick and flick. I I genuinely believe that when you get registered and you get your license, here they go, here you go, your license, it's a license to fail. The responsibility lies on the builder now to then become the best business owner and understand the trade.

Robby: 1:09:22

I don't that's I I 100% disagree with you. In what on what basis? How? That's how every single thing works. You didn't go to business school, you went to building school. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They don't teach you to be a business owner. No, that's right. That's right. Yeah. So they teach you how to be a business owner. Yeah, but then that how do they learn then? Hey. How do they learn?

George: 1:09:42

That's not their problem. Who? The builders? The VBA or no, no, yeah. But there should yeah, okay. So then there needs to be something. Yeah, but you're talking about every single business. I know the difference.

Robby: 1:09:53

Dentists are the same.

George: 1:09:54

They teach you to be a dentist. When was the last time you gave your dentist half a million dollars to do your teeth? The difference is with our industry, is it's often the consumer is investing their entire life savings with this person. It's huge. It's the biggest investment most people will ever make in their life is in the family home. But they do teach you how to manage the funds. They don't teach shit. I've done all the courses. They don't teach you how to how to pay trades and no, never. I've got people that I know people that pay people manually one by one through their net banking.

Robby: 1:10:29

No, no, I'm not talking about how to use net bank. I'm talking about the actual process of payment terms and blah, blah, blah. They don't teach you any of that.

George: 1:10:38

Contracts. Never. Hey? Not once. Unless the curriculum has changed in the last master builders. No, I disagree. What? Master builders. No, I disagree. Unless unless they're um unless the curriculum's changed in the last few years. They're not going to teach you how to do business. Yes, but this is where the shortfall is in the industry. As I said, it's a huge problem in the world.

Robby: 1:10:59

But you're you're you become they don't say to say you're licensed now, go build on your own and open a business. You are licensed to build.

George: 1:11:06

Yes.

Robby: 1:11:07

Yeah, that's it. That's right. They have no responsibility in you going out and yeah, but okay.

George: 1:11:12

So that so what's their solution to the industry problem? Like as a governing body. As a governing body, they're they're just real, they're just going, no, no, we've done our checks and balances. So you know how to build. You do what's the industry problem? I I think the problem here is most builders are excellent at their trade. They're excellent practitioners. They can build a home with their hands tied behind their back, with the blindfold on. They're really good practitioners, really smart, educated guys in construction. The moment they get their license, they have to stop being that person. They have to stop being that practitioner and stop managing the site. So maybe at the beginning, okay, I get it. Your first job, you got to make get under control, do all that sort of stuff. But then they need to start stepping away and starting to educate themselves, whether it's through myself, whether it's through other courses, other people. I know, but then perhaps because this is such a big, a big ticket item in can in the country, like construction, I don't know what it contributes to GDP or however much it employs. Yeah, it's it's quite decent. That's partly the reason why it was never shut down during COVID, is because it employed so many people. Now, uh, and that just exposed how big the problem was is half of these businesses couldn't sustain the pressures from COVID. And yes, they were extreme, but they just highlighted the leaking bucket. I was victim of that too. But I think once they they need to put some more emphasis on improving them, on improving that business acumen, whether it's part of the curriculum to get your building license, maybe that is part of the solution. I don't know. Or they just say, hey, everyone go see George before you fucking build your first house. I don't know. Something needs to happen because, as I said, it's such a big thing that people are investing with these people, and like that's when you should get nervous as a consumer. Hey, I'm gonna give a million dollars, I'm gonna give eight hundred thousand dollars, which is taking me 20 years to save up for me and my wife, to this bloke who's a great builder but can't fucking get a root in a brothel with a handful of 50s, as the saying goes.

Robby: 1:13:18

Is that the saying?

George: 1:13:19

I think so. Um it's it's uh like that's a problem. Like, I don't know, I would feel nervous doing that just because this guy knows how to build. If he can't manage his cash flow, he can't manage his trades, he can't manage, he doesn't know how to get new business or continue the business or price properly or do any of that budgeting, forecasting.

Robby: 1:13:38

I'm not, I'm not. I'm saying Well, you just said you were you're you're you would question giving the money to a builder, but people should not be allowed to own a build.

George: 1:13:45

No, because there's builders out there that know how to build and are very good. There is plenty of build.

Robby: 1:13:52

I'm not saying the whole industry is like I can't believe it's 20%, 25% of the homes. That's a lot. That's a lot. We would lose a lot of houses if they stopped it. In what way? As in those 40,000 homes, you reckon they would still build 40,000 homes?

George: 1:14:07

Not all of them, no.

Robby: 1:14:08

Definitely not.

George: 1:14:08

Yeah, not all of them. But there would be still a decent percentage.

Robby: 1:14:11

What, 10,000?

George: 1:14:12

No, I don't know. I don't know. I reckon. Even if it's half, 20,000? Yeah, I think we'd be. I think it would be half, yeah.

Robby: 1:14:18

That's right. That's more than 10% of the total amount.

George: 1:14:20

Yeah, but I'd probably dare say that most of those homes wouldn't be built the way they should be built. Coming back to all the points I just highlighted, I'm not going to go through them again. Yeah, I never. But arguably either half of those or those people that weren't uh can't afford it. Well, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Live in your house, paint it, put a new kitchen in. Like you can't afford to build. All right, the same way you can't afford to drive a Ferrari every day. Well, fucking drive a Honda. Like, I don't know what you want me to tell you. You cannot afford it. What's that? What's the consequence?

Robby: 1:14:49

What's the comp all right? What's the compromise for when you think an owner build like both both avenues could exist? What is what is it that would have to happen?

George: 1:14:58

I think for this to happen and continue in a way that was sustainable and made sense to economies, to people, there would have to be either an authority or a person that has to do mandatory checks at at least I don't know, five to ten stages of the build. You cannot go and put your roof on until the roof is inspected and the roof plumbing is passed. You cannot put plaster on until all the electrical, all the plumbing, all the everything has been inspected and passed.

Robby: 1:15:27

Can I ask, what if um so 40,000 a year? Of those 40,000, how many do you reckon have significant problems?

George: 1:15:38

I'd say every single one of them would have problems. Significant problems, I don't know. I every one of them would have problems. Yeah, but I think I think like 90% of houses have some level. Oh, but I mean I got them on my jobs. Yeah. That happens. That's the nature of the beast. That's what I'm saying. There's so many elements that are coming together that need to work. Yeah, just like this thing didn't work, or that didn't work, or this item failed. Yeah, I got an email from the clo uh my architect who's like, hey, this pipe's in the wrong location. It's all right, cool. We'll pull it out and move it in the right location. Like shit happens. Uh, and that's also, mind you, that wasn't done wrong. It was just interpretation. That's what that was. But regardless, I think the vast majority of them would. I think at least 50%. Significant. Yeah. I think at least 50% of those people would have huge issues on their jobs because they do not know what the fuck they're doing.

Robby: 1:16:25

Don't you think if that was the case, then it would be no perception. They think it's going to be cheaper.

George: 1:16:30

They, oh, I can do this, I'll watch the block, I can make it.

Robby: 1:16:32

I'm talking about regulations now.

George: 1:16:34

Yeah.

Robby: 1:16:34

Because that creates ongoing problems.

George: 1:16:36

Which the rare the regulation.

Robby: 1:16:38

No, if there's if there's significant issues, houses fall over, blah, blah, blah. Don't you think they would then regulate it better?

George: 1:16:45

No, they're duds. We just established that at the start of this episode. They're all fucked though. Who's gonna regulate? Like the people regulating, who do you think that is? It's government, it's a local, it's a government authority of some sort, the building and plumbing commission. That's the governing body for our industry. They're the ones that give out licenses, they're the ones that will give you a stamp and say, Here you go, build your house. Do you think they teach you everything you need to know to build? No, no, you still need work experience. So that's a thing.

Robby: 1:17:14

Yeah, but it's it's also one of those things where like it's not you can't learn everything from theory.

George: 1:17:19

No, that's right. That's right. When I say work, I mean like this most, as I said, most builders are on the tools, they're on site, they've managed or or they've managed projects. So if you're not a physical person, like I've never been on the tools, as in I've been on the tools but never been a qualified trade, but I've managed projects in the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars. So that in its in its in effect has helped me and made me qualified. But physically building I haven't, and that's what a lot of those people don't build. Like there's no they don't have that compression algorithm to get all that experience in the space of a four-month course. That's where it's going to struggle. So what's the what's the so the solution is look I I think yes, uh that will help them having some level of education in the space or knowledge or passing a test or doing some shit, yes, that would help. Uh I think also having those mandatory inspections at certain stages, so that perhaps they pay a certain consultant ten thousand dollars for the build, like it's just a set fee, these are the five inspections, it's two thousand dollars per inspection, and you have to pass it before you can go into the next stage.

Robby: 1:18:28

Why why do you think project management has become its own thing? Well, I don't understand. So, like you know how there's people who are project managers, so the client will hire a project manager to engage a building.

George: 1:18:38

Yes, okay. So I think that's great. I actually don't mind that at all. I think that's a good aspect because if I was a high-level executive building my home, I'm doing deals, doing whatever I need to do over here. I want, I don't understand construction. I'm a banker. I don't, I'm a butcher, I'm whatever I'm doing. I don't understand. Like he's just said to me he sent me a variation because you know the plumbing stack is wrong. What the fuck's that mean? You sort it out. Plumbing stack? I don't know, whatever. It could be anything. This, yep, all the stack work for your plumbing pipes, all that sort of shit. He doesn't know, he doesn't get that shit. So he goes to the person, project manager, you understand construction? Yes, I do. Can you manage a builder? Yes, I can. Cool. When he says there'd be a variation, can you assess it and make sure it's in accordance with the industry standards, with the current rates, with the current pricing of market materials, all that sort of stuff? Yes, I can. All right, cool. Then I'm willing to pay you five, ten thousand dollars a month to manage my project. So people do that. We often have project managers, uh, and that can often be an architect as well. So we work with plenty of architects that will be the superintendent or project manager for the client. They assess our claim, they assess variations, we go to them for advice if we have any questions on the job, which always come up. We do meetings with them on site, we show them things, we say, hey, what do you want to do here? What do you want to do there? Can we move this wall over here? Can we move that there? Yes, you can. So I think a project manager can be, depending on the complexity of the project, can be a really valuable tool. On a job and worth its money. Like they should pay for themselves at the end of the job with the savings and things that they can bring up with the builder and between the client as well. And it keeps a builder and client arm's length as well, which I think can be good too, advantageous.

Robby: 1:20:15

Uh I think you're further away from the client.

George: 1:20:17

Yeah, from the it's like removes a bit of emotion from it. Say, no, no, the builder isn't ripping you off. This is a genuine cost. All right. I've looked at it myself. Like there's no he's he's right in what he's saying. Or the builder could come in and say, hey, you want to put this variation thing. He's like, oh, come on. You and me both know that this isn't a variation, you've got to wear it. It's in your contract, it says it here. Oh, yeah, okay. So it can keep both parties honest and on the right track.

Robby: 1:20:42

If if they did change the regulation to say that you could do that thing, and they were like, George. Inspections. Yep. And they're like, George, you know, you can earn$10,000 for doing 10 inspections on this job. Would that interest you?

George: 1:20:58

Me put no, I won't do it.

Robby: 1:21:00

Why?

George: 1:21:00

That's it's not worth my time. I make more money here.

Robby: 1:21:03

Ten, but so it's like you're gonna spend five hours. I don't want to. 20,000. How much has a payer? A million. A million.

George: 1:21:12

No, like if yeah, I mean again, yeah, if I wanted something low risk that I could come in and do 10 homes a month, maybe. Maybe that's what I'm saying.

Robby: 1:21:20

I'm not saying become your only thing. No, no.

George: 1:21:22

I'm saying would you be interested in that? Perhaps, maybe, I don't know. I'd look at but again, I'd look at what might where my time is best spent. If I have to go on site and inspect for two hours, then come back to the office and write a report for two hours or a day, it takes a day out of my month. Is that worth it for me for 2,000 bucks? Maybe not. Yeah. I don't know. I like I could see people doing it. Yeah, maybe it's a matter of getting a registered builder to come in and do the inspection. So they don't have to hire a private body to do it. I don't know. But I would feel more comfortable if there were things like that in place then. Might be an opportunity for the owner builder to ask questions and say, okay, look, I'm about to do this. What do you recommend? What should I do here? What should I do here? How do you think that's a good thing?

Robby: 1:22:06

Yeah, but then if it became a thing of like consulting, then let them do it.

George: 1:22:10

Yeah, but that's what I'm yeah, exactly. But maybe they could just ask quick questions whilst they're I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, that's right. Something could come into place to make it better, yes. So am I completely dismissive? I think the system as it is at the moment, even then, I would still argue and say you're better off getting a builder. I would still say that, even with those checks and balances in. I would say overall, I believe you will still be better off getting a proper reputable builder to do your home. But if you have some more checks and balances in, I think it would help the space and people that maybe couldn't afford to build their home to build it.

Robby: 1:22:45

What would have to happen for you to buy a home that was built by an owner builder?

George: 1:22:52

The owner builder would have to be a registered builder. As it did, he's just building his own home. No, I wouldn't buy it. I just wouldn't trust it. Would you buy a kid car bought would you buy a car that was a Ferrari? Would you buy a Ferrari that was built by a person in the back of your shed?

Robby: 1:23:11

No, but but you're you're no, I wouldn't. Why?

George: 1:23:15

It's still a Ferrari, all genuine parts. He put it together.

Robby: 1:23:17

So let me, I'll explain what I'm thinking. Your thoughts there's a level of contradiction. Yeah. Because you're saying that you'd only buy it if a licensed builder bought it, and you're saying that licensed builder aren't trained correctly.

George: 1:23:30

No, I wouldn't buy, I wouldn't, I wouldn't buy an owner builder home.

Robby: 1:23:33

Would you buy a built one bought by a licensed builder?

George: 1:23:38

I'd feel more comfortable, yes. Yeah. Yeah, because they know how to build. Yeah, but you you just like it's a if I built my own home and then I sold it. Like that's technically, even though I'm a builder, that's technically owner builder, but effectively it's the same as any other construction project I've got. So what I'm saying is I wouldn't buy an owner-builder home.

Robby: 1:23:56

If you built your own company, you build it through the company.

George: 1:23:59

Yeah, but it's still considered, no, mate, it depends on the tax benefits. I don't know.

Robby: 1:24:03

Nah, also like insurance license, like a liability, 10 years.

George: 1:24:07

Yeah, uh maybe it only comes into play if I sell it. Oh, so you have to get insurance at the end of the project. You'll have to get home warranty insurance and pay for it, I believe. As an owner builder, yes, but not during the construction. Yeah, so you still want to have the issues. Fuck nobody.

Robby: 1:24:27

Well, you don't want to have the issues, but the fact that they're willing to warrant it, it mustn't be that bad. No, it's that bad.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:34

I'm telling you, Matt.

George: 1:24:35

You wouldn't want to ever buy a home that's fucked. Hey? You wouldn't ever want to buy a home that's fucked. Nothing's worse. Yeah, yeah, but like everything's fixable. Yeah, knocking it down to do it again.

Robby: 1:24:44

Yeah, but like everything's fixable. That's worst case scenario.

George: 1:24:48

Um but also the home warranty only it's capped. It's not, you don't get a million dollars to build your home again. The max payout on any single policy is like 300 grand or some shit like that to do something.

Robby: 1:25:00

Is it?

George: 1:25:01

Yeah. Because it doesn't account, it doesn't account on a yeah, it is, but it doesn't account for a full rebuild. It's on the basis that, oh, you've got these defects, well, this is what it's going to cost you. I don't know. I actually don't know the full. I'm sure there's some difference, some differences with the policy from an owner builder, but I just don't know. I've never looked into it.

Robby: 1:25:22

I don't know. But if you're a builder and you feel like you don't know enough, you know what I mean? You do feel and agree with George and say that you know they have kind of left you left you hanging out to dry and left you dangling in the wind. Like that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:41

There's something that they could do. Do you hey? There's something that they could do.

Robby: 1:25:45

Uh there's definitely something that they could do. Uh do you want to give us the dates for the next upcoming Builder Summit, please, George? Because we do have one coming up and it's not too far away. This episode will air the week of Christmas. So, Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas uh for a couple days.

George: 1:26:04

Look, at this stage, we're TBC, but it's looking like the 25th of February, Wednesday. Wednesday, the 25th of February, guys. Keep it free. Keep it free. The Builder Summit is coming to Melbourne. It is actually going to be, and I'm going to say it here for the very first time, it is going to be our biggest Builder Summit ever. That's something about that. We'll see. Ever. Pressure's on Robbie.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:33

Who knows?

George: 1:26:34

It is going to be our biggest one. The biggest crowd you have ever seen. Champagne will fall from the ceilings. Confetti will rain down on everyone. It is going to be an amazing event.

Robby: 1:26:45

I'm going to flick the flame right back at you. It's Christmas. Merry Christmas. Thank you. Um Muslim. Haram. It's haram. Um the is haram just bad? Is that what it means? Haram? Yeah. It's like uh this is against Yeah, it's bad. Okay, cool. That's bad. That's bad. Haram that's bad. That's haram. Don't do it. Yeah, okay, got it. Um I think if this is gonna be the biggest builder summit, right? We gotta we gotta make it the biggest builder summit. You're damn straight. And I I believe I'm gonna do everything in my part. Like we're gonna do everything. But I think you need to do something on your side. I'm gonna do it. That's consider it done.

George: 1:27:30

Consider it done. Whatever Robbie says next is happening. Whatever Robbie says next is happening. That's how much faith I have in his ability and our George in our ability.

Robby: 1:27:39

It's the Christmas, it's the Christmas spirit. This is Christmas week. We should be giving. It's the week of giving. Wednesday night to Christmas Eve. So you listen to this just before Christmas. We wish you a Merry Christmas. And um the more I sit here and we talk, the more I think you look like Santa.

George: 1:27:56

Oh I know. It's getting whiter and whiter. Maybe I dye it. Maybe I go down, maybe I'll fight the aging battle.

Robby: 1:28:05

Oh, yeah, not dye it white.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:10

I thought you were getting the white. I was going the other way, but yes. I thought you were getting in the uh shaved for about three weeks. It is the season. It is the season. So um Okay, now I regret doing whatever Robbie says next.

Robby: 1:28:25

I'm not saying we're gonna give anyone specific anything, but maybe, just maybe, and you can decide what it is. Maybe you want to decide now, maybe you want to decide later, maybe you want to do this live. But I think we should give something. In the fact that we've announced this on the week of Christmas, I think there should be some giveaway for the people. You have to be there to win it, obviously. Of course. Um, but we want it to be the biggest event, it's gonna be the biggest event, and we're gonna give away the biggest prize. Do you have something in mind that you can on the spot right now, George, that I can I'm throwing you under the bus, I know, but do you have something in mind, Santa, that you that you can maybe play, you know, a late Christmas present for the people who sign up because the link will be live by the time this airs. So the link will be live. So you gotta plug it up. We'll plug it in the description.

George: 1:29:15

Hey, it's gonna be it's gonna be a free event. Okay, so I don't need your money. But if you do want to spend money and get an exceptional experience, you can get gold and VIP.

Robby: 1:29:24

Some bonuses, yeah.

George: 1:29:25

There are bonuses there, uh, some of which Robbie will be working with you directly on. I tell you what, you gotta get there. That's the first step. You gotta register. So register. Register is the very first step. Get there, get there. You have to go, the first person.

Robby: 1:29:40

Oh, you're gonna do it like that? I thought you're gonna do an angel.

George: 1:29:44

Nah, let's get some action, let's take some action. So the very first person that goes to the back of the room and says to Renee, who will be at the back of the room, okay. And says, million dollar days rocks my world. You have to say it like that. Million dollar days rocks my world. That is the key phrase. Renee will give you a special prize.

Robby: 1:30:15

You're not gonna say what it is.

George: 1:30:17

Oh, I can't tell you what it is. Renee will give you a special prize.

Robby: 1:30:20

I reckon we should do a Yeah, no, let's just leave it at that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:25

You put me on that spot. I don't know what the prize is gonna be yet. I am that it's gonna be sick.

Robby: 1:30:30

It's of course. It's gonna be I can't tell you. But I'll tell you after after we kill off these cameras. Um, but yeah, link in link in the description. If you're watching this on YouTube, it'll be in the description. If you're listening to this on your favorite podcast platform, leave us a review. Yep. Tell us how good this is. We wish you and your families a very Merry Christmas. Uh, I hope 25, 2025 was good has been the greatest year so far. And I hope 2026 Santa brings you all the prizes that you want.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:05

Go and get it. Go and get it. 26. All right, we're done and dusted.

Robby: 1:31:09

Do we have another episode? We'll have one more episode before we end up. Okay, we'll talk. Should we miss a link?

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:14

Nah, no, don't be silly.

Robby: 1:31:16

Too committed. Don't be silly. Uh, there will be one more episode, so we will have another episode aired just after Christmas. Uh, and that'll be the final episode of 2025. But for now, Merry Christmas, and we hope the next time we see you, you're enjoying your break.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:33

Speak soon. Thanks, guys. Thanks.